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MM77

What is meant by a box section?

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I'm considering getting my Mk1 dipped and the guide says:

"ensure that any box sections are free draining and adequately vented. i.e. a hole or two at the bottom and a hole at the top."

BTW, I'm still researching the pros and cons of dipping so if we could leave that conversation for another day ;)

Is it areas like the A pillars?

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Yes....and sills....anything boxed in that could hold water/acid etc

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

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3 minutes ago, Monza said:

Yes....and sills....anything boxed in that could hold water/acid etc

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk
 

Thanks for that.

I'll need to have a poke around then and list them all.

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My advice? Don't do it. 

Read my van's build thread, in particular towards the end, for why not. 

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2 minutes ago, Vista said:

My advice? Don't do it. 

Read my van's build thread, in particular towards the end, for why not. 

Yep already done that and it was thread that planted the seed of doubt.  Did you drill out the box sections?

BTW, I followed your buid from day 1 and it was a major influence on me ;)

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Just now, MM77 said:

Yep already done that and it was thread that planted the seed of doubt.  Did you drill out the box sections?

BTW, I followed your buid from day 1 and it was a major influence on me ;)

Yes, there was space for them to drain.

Retained acid was not the issue though. It was the fact that the e-coating process wasn't nearly as good as claimed at sealing it all up again and appeared to leave lots of areas unprotected in bare metal. 

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7 minutes ago, Vista said:

 

Yes, there was space for them to drain.

Retained acid was not the issue though. It was the fact that the e-coating process wasn't nearly as good as claimed at sealing it all up again and appeared to leave lots of areas unprotected in bare metal. 

Ok gotcha.

I think I read that from you already actually.  Like most of us this is a dream build and I'd prefer to spend more and future proof it.  I wonder if e-coating it twice will do the trick.

Failing that, soda blasting is indeed the plan B.

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I 'thought' I had researched this to death... Decided to dip... Then came across this forum, as it turns out in the wrong order! My MK2 was dipped, with the intention of e-coating after any wielding was done.

I have change the way I'm going forward after taking onboard what advice I was give on here, from the like of @Vista that has be there, done that and lived with with it.

My RS2000 thread is on here if it helps you any.

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8 minutes ago, Cuili1 said:

I 'thought' I had researched this to death... Decided to dip... Then came across this forum, as it turns out in the wrong order! My MK2 was dipped, with the intention of e-coating after any wielding was done.

I have change the way I'm going forward after taking onboard what advice I was give on here, from the like of @Vista that has be there, done that and lived with with it.

My RS2000 thread is on here if it helps you any.

Thanks.  I was reading your thread earlier this week also.  

What I don't get is the varying levels of feedback on the process.  On the one hand we have people like Vista (who obviously is well respected and trusted) but on the other we have countless 911's and a couple Lancia Stratos' being dipped.  If somebody is trusting their Stratos to the process my dime-a-dozen Escort should be fine.  But research tells me it may not.

It really can't just be down to luck.  Is it the time left between the dip and the e-coating perhaps? Is it the condition of the shell beforehand? Is it the prep-work? It has to be something. 

 

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No axe to grind here but it occurs to me that if the 'E Coat' doesn't get to all the places it should then surely the acid dip isn't either? So it may not be a coating failure but essentially just plain rust on original metal. I've seen the E Dip process in OEM factories where the car body does a complete flip whilst submerged ie big, deep tanks - maybe the aftermarket can't match this extensive dipping?

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1 minute ago, MM77 said:

Thanks.  I was reading your thread earlier this week also.  

What I don't get is the varying levels of feedback on the process.  On the one hand we have people like Vista (who obviously is well respected and trusted) but on the other we have countless 911's and a couple Lancia Stratos' being dipped.  If somebody is trusting their Stratos to the process my dime-a-dozen Escort should be fine.  But research tells me it may not.

It really can't just be down to luck.  Is it the time left between the dip and the e-coating perhaps? Is it the condition of the shell beforehand? Is it the prep-work? It has to be something. 

 

Yes, exactly the dilemma I had, but what I hadn't thought of, was all these articles that I was reading, and bodyshops I was taking advice from weren't writing or living with the car a few years down the line.

I looked into the heat removal system, it sounds good, I've spoke with them, even they don't offer e-coating because they say a good spray primmer is better!

Who knows!!!? 

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3 minutes ago, katana said:

No axe to grind here but it occurs to me that if the 'E Coat' doesn't get to all the places it should then surely the acid dip isn't either? So it may not be a coating failure but essentially just plain rust on original metal. I've seen the E Dip process in OEM factories where the car body does a complete flip whilst submerged ie big, deep tanks - maybe the aftermarket can't match this extensive dipping?

That's a fair point, and could be correct.

But is there aftermarket E-Dipping out there? The company I was going to use, book your car on a new car factory production line, so it goes through with new cars.

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12 minutes ago, Cuili1 said:

Yes, exactly the dilemma I had, but what I hadn't thought of, was all these articles that I was reading, and bodyshops I was taking advice from weren't writing or living with the car a few years down the line.

I looked into the heat removal system, it sounds good, I've spoke with them, even they don't offer e-coating because they say a good spray primmer is better!

Who knows!!!? 

Perhaps I'm a little too cynical but every shop thinks their method is the best and would discredit another in order to sell their own process.

I think what I'm going to do is find a few builds on say Pistonheads of various different builds that have all been dipped.  The dipping should be about 5 years old and I will see how they're tracking today,

 

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6 minutes ago, notenoughtime said:

I was looking at getting my mk1 dipped but to many horror stories so it will go to (Ashley) sodablaster

Thanks will check him out.

Re the horror stories, negative feedback tends to travel faster on the internet than positive.  So while I don't doubt there are horror stories out there I'm sure there are even more positive cases. Anyway as I said, I'm still researching my options so thanks for your recommendation.

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Just now, MM77 said:

Thanks will check him out.

Re the horror stories, negative feedback tends to travel faster on the internet than positive.  So while I don't doubt there are horror stories out there I'm sure there are even more positive cases. Anyway as I said, I'm still researching my options so thanks for your recommendation.

that is so true, There are also loads of keyboard warriors that like to jump on  the band wagon also

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15 minutes ago, katana said:

No axe to grind here but it occurs to me that if the 'E Coat' doesn't get to all the places it should then surely the acid dip isn't either? So it may not be a coating failure but essentially just plain rust on original metal. I've seen the E Dip process in OEM factories where the car body does a complete flip whilst submerged ie big, deep tanks - maybe the aftermarket can't match this extensive dipping?

The acid is obviously liquid while the e-coat is an electromagnetic charge so they would reach different places.  The latter should theoretically should reach the entire shell whereas the acid only the same places where water would reach (assuming the same viscosity of course).

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5 minutes ago, notenoughtime said:

that is so true, There are also loads of keyboard warriors that like to jump on  the band wagon also

Exactly.  I basically spent most of last Sunday researching this and the threads all go like this:

OP: Should I get my car dipped?

Reply: No, worst thing to do ever.

OP: Oh, was it on your car?

Reply: No, read it on the internet.

 

So far the only case I put complete faith in is Vista's.

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i know of a split screen camper that was dipped and now has rust running down the sides,  but lets see some positives from someone please lol

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15 minutes ago, MM77 said:

The acid is obviously liquid while the e-coat is an electromagnetic charge so they would reach different places.  The latter should theoretically should reach the entire shell whereas the acid only the same places where water would reach (assuming the same viscosity of course).

Not so - the process in both cases is liquid based - acid / alkali, rinse, zinc based dip, rinse, e-coat, rinse, low temp bake. The e-coating is similar to powder coating ie. the 'paint' is attracted to bare metal which has a negative charge, once it has a film depth it can't accept any more as it can't bond.

Whilst soda or other blasting will remove paint, filler, rust it is an external only process - the hidden bits aren't addressed! This is exactly the reason our classics rust out - the hidden / non accessible voids that were never painted / protected - sills, chassis rails, door cavities etc. can't help themselves but rust!

Personally if I was tackling a resto to the extent of bare shell that was badly externally rusted, I would dip and e-coat if the process replicated OEM and flipped or rolled the body otherwise I'd have to accept rust would be likely again - bummer when the cost is so high!

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21 minutes ago, notenoughtime said:

i know of a split screen camper that was dipped and now has rust running down the sides,  but lets see some positives from someone please lol

Probably done on purpose for the 'rat look' lol.

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3 minutes ago, katana said:

Not so - the process in both cases is liquid based - acid / alkali, rinse, zinc based dip, rinse, e-coat, rinse, low temp bake. The e-coating is similar to powder coating ie. the 'paint' is attracted to bare metal which has a negative charge, once it has a film depth it can't accept any more as it can't bond.

Whilst soda or other blasting will remove paint, filler, rust it is an external only process - the hidden bits aren't addressed! This is exactly the reason our classics rust out - the hidden / non accessible voids that were never painted / protected - sills, chassis rails, door cavities etc. can't help themselves but rust!

Personally if I was tackling a resto to the extent of bare shell that was badly externally rusted, I would dip and e-coat if the process replicated OEM and flipped or rolled the body otherwise I'd have to accept rust would be likely again - bummer when the cost is so high!

Ah ok, thanks for the clarification there.  Very helpful.

The shell is Aussie sourced so the only rust I'm aware of is in the heater bowl.  I have stripped it down completely and there isn't any more rust in it anywhere, thankfully.  So I'm not really concerned with it coming back in a box.

 

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