Forgive my ignorance...... Duratec related

[Guest MK1gaz]

Thats why i was asking gaz as there is no hope of getting a 300hp yb for anywhere near the price of the duratec, but as usual he started changing the subject when you compare them like for like.

A 300bhp duratec will not be cheaper than any other 300bhp 4 cylinder engine will be . They all need the same expensive bits but some engines fit into an escort and some don't . A full monty big valve ported YB head flows more air than a duratec head so will make more power for more of the rev range as well

[mitomad]

Thats why i was asking gaz as there is no hope of getting a 300hp yb for anywhere near the price of the duratec, but as usual he started changing the subject when you compare them like for like.

A 300bhp duratec will not be cheaper than any other 300bhp 4 cylinder engine will be . They all need the same expensive bits but some engines fit into an escort and some don't . A full monty big valve ported YB head flows more air than a duratec head so will make more power for more of the rev range as well

If thats the case why dont you see adverts from engine builders in osf/kit cars/motorsport mags with 304hp 195ftlb zetecs, xe's and cossies

[Guest MK1gaz]

Most kit car companys etc always use the lastest plastic engine in their adverts because you can't buy brand new YB's , Xe's etc etc anymore . Plus we all know how fast the old engines go so they try and make out that the latest engines are better in order to tempt more money from kit car lovers (bearded dreamers with featherweight caterhams where 200bhp feels like 300bhp !!!!!!!!!! ).

[Toby]

But does'nt peak BHP mean ALOT on the track as opposed to strip stuff where you do need a fat wall of torque and power?

 

I think in both arenas you ideally want both, and "nicely" delivered. Some of the top engine builders now quote an average power from say 5-8k revs. It's a good way to compare engines, that and using BMEP figures - Brake Mean Effective Pressure. Aparently it's a good tool for comparing engine designs and the reliability of "quoted" power figures.

[sambo]

Bearded dreamers!!!

[Retromotorsport]

A 16v pinto with 20 odd bhp less power will blast past a duratec with more power . This is because "peak bhp" means nothing in the real world , it just sells engines for the tuners !!!!!!!

 

Gaz when you started talking last time about this you said Matt Downers engine was all peak power... compared to his old YB his new duratec has more power everywhere .. just compare the two graphs ..

 

 

Its the same old arguement again.. Facts are facts ..

 

Gaz likes an arguement fact

But ignores facts ....

 

his answer to what is below will be " how come they havnt beaten a pinto down the 1/4 " ... simple fact that the duratecs cars weigh more than the cars hes comparing them to

 

Fast Pinto (red in colour) car 224bhp / 750kg = 298bhp/tonne

The Duratec'ed rally car 260bhp/ 980kg = 265bhp/tonne

 

But getting back to facts .................................

 

Matts duratec pisses over his Yb on power throughout the rev range..

At 4000rpm the cossie made 120ft/lb

the duratec ......... 150ft/lb

 

Matts cossie has a flat curve with 140ft/lb at 5000 to 8000 peaking at 149.7 ft/lb

 

Matts duratec flat curves with 170ft/lb at 5000 to 8800 peaking at 195 ft/lb

 

Thats some monster torque if the cossie was a torquey engine

 

At the x-over of 5250rpm the cossie has 140bhp the duratec 180bhp

 

One rests his case, over to the jury

[Retromotorsport]

Thats why i was asking gaz as there is no hope of getting a 300hp yb for anywhere near the price of the duratec, but as usual he started changing the subject when you compare them like for like.

A 300bhp duratec will not be cheaper than any other 300bhp 4 cylinder engine will be . They all need the same expensive bits but some engines fit into an escort and some don't . A full monty big valve ported YB head flows more air than a duratec head so will make more power for more of the rev range as well

 

read my post above ....

[sambo]

So, for a good fun road / trackday duratec engine, with good power ~ 240+ ish BHP, with all the conversion parts, how much are we looking at?

 

I look at lots of zetec conversions and i must agree with Gaz, they dont really seem to be worth all the hassle (sorry guys).

I know a guy who spent 8K on his zetec install and came out with 220 BHP. 8 thousand pounds!! for 220 bhp!!?? For that much money, surely there are better ford N/A options?

Anyway, back to the duratec. I just think they are still way too pricey in comparison to other options out there.

 

The only reason i ask is that for big power, N/A (preferably) or turbo, the only way financially and sensibly is turbo YB ??

[Guest MK1gaz]

Matts duratec pisses over his Yb on power throughout the rev range..

At 4000rpm the cossie made 120ft/lb

the duratec ......... 150ft/lb

 

Matts cossie has a flat curve with 140ft/lb at 5000 to 8000 peaking at 149.7 ft/lb

 

Matts duratec flat curves with 170ft/lb at 5000 to 8800 peaking at 195 ft/lb

Well for starters Matts 300bhp duratec engine install would cost twice the price of his old atmo cossie install by the time it's driving if you built them both side by side . Also dyno runs don't mean much it's the clock that counts . Matt's old atmo cossie hit 11.8 secs from 0-100mph at brunters with 75bhp less than his new duratecs got now . We'll see how much faster the 75bhp at the "peak" rpm makes his escort . Get a Track n Road rolling road proven 250bhp duratec up against my 215bhp atmo cossie and i'll push it up the road no problem !!!!!!!!

[Burns]

Matts duratec pisses over his Yb on power throughout the rev range..

 

Get a Track n Road rolling road proven 250bhp duratec up against my 215bhp atmo cossie and i'll push it up the road no problem !!!!!!!!

 

[Guest MK1gaz]

So, for a good fun road / trackday duratec engine, with good power ~ 240+ ish BHP, with all the conversion parts, how much are we looking at?

There won't be many or any dyno-dynamics proven 240bhp duratecs about mate . In fact unless they're running exotic fuel , huge compression and can rev to 10,000 it won't happen with a 2 litre . If you want a genuine 240+bhp dyno-dynamics proven 2 litre duratec engine that runs on pump fuel then get about £20,000 ready cos that's what it will cost for a complete running + working install . All the fastest escorts have pinto based engines in them and they always will , you won't overtake one with a duratec unless your very rich . If you are that rich then a Millington Diamond is better than a duratec will ever be , it's the greatest ever atmo 4 pot (pick one up complete for about £10,000 secondhand )

[Guest MK1gaz]

You may roll those eyes sunshine but i will race one if you get one . I reckon my dyno-dynamics proven 215bhp atmo cossie will sit on the arse of a track n road proven 250bhp madza duratec no sweat , so lets find out

[Burns]

You may roll those eyes sunshine but i will race one if you get one . I reckon my dyno-dynamics proven 215bhp atmo cossie will sit on the arse of a track n road proven 250bhp madza duratec no sweat , so lets find out

 

it would definately be good to find out.

 

and it's not sunshine.

[Guest MK1gaz]

[mitomad]

If you are that rich then a Millington Diamond is better than a duratec will ever be , it's the greatest ever atmo 4 pot (pick one up complete for about £10,000 secondhand )

Yes but thats second hand, failing to compare like for like yet again.

Besides it wont be 300hp lol

Face it gaz the days are numbered especially when more people start doing duratec bits bringing the prices down.

[Guest MK1gaz]

. A secondhand full monty duratec will be cheaper than a Millington diamond but the Millington will fit into an escort cheaper so will only cost the same . Plus you can get 350bhp millingtons !!!!!!!

[sambo]

So, is Gaz right? getting decent power from a duratec is a rich mans game?

Not even an option then? How much is a 230 BHP harris pinto or 240 BHP Wayne cossie £££ in comparison? it sounds like there isnt (at the moment) any competition then?

Old skool is the best skool there is then?

[Guest MK1gaz]

To be honest not much will get past a pucker 200+ bhp pinto or a decent atmo cossie unless you've got £15,000+ too spend . Even then it will be close . We've all seen how fast they go (and that's according to a clock and not some rolling road "peak" bhp number ) so don't say you wasn't warned . For example just look at the performance of the Harris pintos etc etc at the Pod and The H.T. racing pintos etc etc on the tracks and in Darran Moss' normal street legal mk2 escort . They go like fooooook

[Retromotorsport]

To be honest not much will get past a pucker 200+ bhp pinto or a decent atmo cossie unless you've got £15,000+ too spend . Even then it will be close . We've all seen how fast they go (and that's according to a clock and not some rolling road "peak" bhp number ) so don't say you wasn't warned . For example just look at the performance of the Harris pintos etc etc at the Pod and The H.T. racing pintos etc etc on the tracks and in Darran Moss' normal street legal mk2 escort . They go like fooooook

 

BDA/BDG ...

 

 

And again i say like for like on the chassis the Duratec's and Zetec's piss over the good old pintosaurus... as proven every weekend the Sports 2000 guys go out ..

 

Think it may be interesting if Matt tells us how much it was to get his engine in the car .. you to see if he needed all these thousands of pounds to bolt it in ..

I'll start the ball rolling .. I charged him £125 to mount the engine and box .. the box fitted to the original mounts .. and i made the up the chassis mounts ... smae price as i charge when chassis mounting a Pinto based or anything else for that matter ..

 

so we have £875 to go before we even hit 1k let alone the "thousands " that Gaz reckons

[oliwally]

To be honest not much will get past a pucker 200+ bhp pinto or a decent atmo cossie unless you've got £15,000+ too spend . Even then it will be close . We've all seen how fast they go (and that's according to a clock and not some rolling road "peak" bhp number ) so don't say you wasn't warned . For example just look at the performance of the Harris pintos etc etc at the Pod and The H.T. racing pintos etc etc on the tracks and in Darran Moss' normal street legal mk2 escort . They go like fooooook

 

BDA/BDG ...

 

 

And again i say like for like on the chassis the Duratec's and Zetec's piss over the good old pintosaurus... as proven every weekend the Sports 2000 guys go out ..

 

Think it may be interesting if Matt tells us how much it was to get his engine in the car .. you to see if he needed all these thousands of pounds to bolt it in ..

I'll start the ball rolling .. I charged him £125 to mount the engine and box .. the box fitted to the original mounts .. and i made the up the chassis mounts ... smae price as i charge when chassis mounting a Pinto based or anything else for that matter ..

 

so we have £875 to go before we even hit 1k let alone the "thousands " that Gaz reckons

 

Not taking sides but how much does the sump/bellhousing/manifolds/ecus/etc cost?

think this is what Gaz is trying to get at.

[Guest MK1gaz]

Matts 300 bhp duratec engine install was secondhand though . Phone up SBD and get a price list for a new full monty duratec install then cos that's what i did !!!!!!!!! . As for zetecs and duratecs pissing over pintos i don't think so mate , they might creep past if you've got £15,000 to spend though .

[Guest MK1gaz]

There's going to be a couple of 270+bhp atmo cossies hitting the streets this summer so we'll get some duratecs up against those to see if they can keep up in a race . That will be very interesting indeed i reckon .

[cossie matt]

Matts duratec pisses over his Yb on power throughout the rev range..

At 4000rpm the cossie made 120ft/lb

the duratec ......... 150ft/lb

 

Matts cossie has a flat curve with 140ft/lb at 5000 to 8000 peaking at 149.7 ft/lb

 

Matts duratec flat curves with 170ft/lb at 5000 to 8800 peaking at 195 ft/lb

Well for starters Matts 300bhp duratec engine install would cost twice the price of his old atmo cossie install by the time it's driving if you built them both side by side . Also dyno runs don't mean much it's the clock that counts . Matt's old atmo cossie hit 11.8 secs from 0-100mph at brunters with 75bhp less than his new duratecs got now . We'll see how much faster the 75bhp at the "peak" rpm makes his escort . Get a Track n Road rolling road proven 250bhp duratec up against my 215bhp atmo cossie and i'll push it up the road no problem !!!!!!!!

 

 

Gaz firstly I accept your challenge!!! And I think as someone who has done the said swap I am the one best to say how much it actually cost.

 

Some of what you have said is utter tripe mate, I'm sorry but you are being very narrow minded. The YB N/A is a great engine but it's old in design and it was always meant to be a turbo engine so the quote about the head flowing more air is rubbish. The YB won't run as a N/A very well at all without mods so that's one thing to consider. Like it or not the Duratec has one of the best designed cylinder heads out there and flows far better than most YB heads. Also as it is almost a Square engine (bore the same as stroke as in the XE) it is far better equipped to produce better torque and the dyno figures prove it. My new engine pisses over my YB EVERYWHERE!!! FACT and it's not just peak figures.

 

My install hasn't cost much at all, definitley no more than my YB cost, Gaz I know you have had your fair share of probs installing your YB too so I know how much it has cost, the only real costs getting my engine in was a bellhousing £300ish and an engine mount kit £50 And before you say there you go £300 on a bellhousing, I had to get my RS one modified to take a cossie starter which cost £200 anyway when I put the YB in.

 

The reality is if you want a decent spec engine of any type installed, with Dry sump, Aeroquip, Pukka Manifold etc it's gonna cost about the same.

[Guest MK1gaz]

Matt i've not mentioned your install price , i was only pointing out to retromotorsport that you can't expect to buy a new 300bhp duratec and all the bits for it to work (and drive) in an escort from SBD for less than £15,000 . I would except a top notch 300bhp engine to be better than a 230bhp engine but i don't think it would be that much faster in a race .

[Guest MK1gaz]

The YB N/A is a great engine but it's old in design and it was always meant to be a turbo engine so the quote about the head flowing more air is rubbish.

Go and have a look at this site www.cncheads.co.uk . Click on the "products" title and scroll down the engine cylinder heads list . By clicking on the "go" button in the far right column you will see the flow charts for each head . You will see a big valve YB head which flows more air than the duratecs can manage . Not cheap at £1250 but cabable of producing 300+bhp never the less