Rebuild Princess 4Pots Or Buy New?

[texr2000]

Morning all,

On my mk1 escort i have 2.8 struts, 2.8 Vented Disc, Green Stuff Pads And Princess 4 Pots. (with the pad over lap) With Bias Box.

 

They have been on there for years, i remember them being on there with servo so at least 9 years. Car been off the road a while and as i mentioned in another post they dont seem their best. And feel like disc could be warped as getting lots of feedback in the form of steering shaking under hard breaking, and a little pulse on the pedal. I had the hubs off and gunned up the 4 bolts that hold disc on, them seem tight, dont feel any play in wheel bearings. This could be down to pad over lap and needing 260mm disc, but back when i fitted them i was young and naive also info wasn't available like it is now.

 

"Be Interested to know what set up is best for 13" wheels. Currently running princess 4pots on drilled and groved 2.8 disk with green suff pads. standard drums rear, controlled via bias box.

 

Have to say been thinking to make some changes as after the car been sitting for a few years and feel the brakes should be better, should be similar to my Caterham.

Car is a few hundred KG less but stops amazing, that runs 13" and has 254mm disc and Caterham's AP 4pots on the front with sierra calipers 228mm disc on the rear, DS Performance pads all round via AP Master.

 

Escort stoppers just never feel all that, pedal never feels as good as it could, and since come out this year getting some feedback through the steering when pressing hard on them, another job for the weekend haha"

 

I was looking online in to upgrades, thinking to strip out the whole lot and start a fresh, new lines throughout, new shoes and wheel cylinders. (or rear disc conversion but im not sure if the car really needs disc on the back but looks cooler  )

 

But searching the forum it seems the princess calipers get good feed back, some saying they favor them over new off the shelf upgrades! Also keeps things on the car more oldskool. So thinking do i pull them off and order a £32 rebuild kit from Bigg Red and hope pistons are ok, clean them up repaint them and fit them with new 260mm disc and new pads (options please on pads) Other option is to " BMW E30 325 260mm vented discs machined to fit (very cheap discs at £40 a pair). A bit of fettling is needed but they do fit (just)" then take these along with my 2.8 ones to a machine shop to have modded???

 

Other option is to sale mine and go for willwood Powerlite calipers that fit over a new standard 247mm disc and buy some new pads....

 

IS there a 'How To' on rebuilding Princess 4 pots?

[brettp]

I had princess 4 pots they never worked great and weighed a tonne

[Vista]

If they aren't leaking and the pistons are all good and move freely, they don't need a rebuild. If they need a full rebuild (including pistons) then I don't think it would cost you much more for a modern alloy 4 pot caliper from Willwood. Personally I think I'd give them a good clean up and fit the larger disc with some new decent quality pads and see if that sorts things for you

[texr2000]

well they dont seem to leak, there not wet and fluid never moved. Dont think its worth spliting them and cleaning them all up? more push pistons out a bit clean them up push back a few times and see how they are?

 

What disc/pad options you think? worth going for E30 disc? Probs be cheap with discount at Unipart then a drink at machine shop to have them modded. not that i know whats done to them, i assume drill holes to match hub

[Vista]

Rally design do an oversized disc, modified for this purpose, off the shelf. Try a set of them.

 

You can strip them down and clean them out by try blowing the pistons out first (use a compressed air line) and then flush plenty of clean brake fluid through them.

[texr2000]

I have seen these 257mm £35+vat each = £84+P&P or £120 for X Drilled

 

I can get a pair of 260mm e30 disc £45 all in.

 

I dont have compressed air best i have is a 12v tyre pump lol

[Vista]

Is the offset correct on the E30 disc and how much will it cost to get them redrilled to 4 x 108?

[texr2000]

i dunno what needs to be done to the disc, i assume just have the holes re drilled, i found out about using them searching on here. was gonna take one of mine off and look at the ones unipart have to get an idea. having them just redrilled would be 20 quid.

 

your thoughts are just buy the ones from rally design and stop being tight haha

[Vista]

 

your thoughts are just buy the ones from rally design and stop being tight haha

 

 

No, not if it can be done cheaper. I'll be interested to hear your results as I have Princess calipers and standard 2.8i vented discs on my RS 

[deltamal]

I got my Princess 4 pots refurbished by classic car automotive based in Cheshire a few years ago, stripped, cleaned, plated, supplied spaced for vented discs and new stainless pistons with seals, total cost with vat £160, green stuff pads, Big red sell the extra width anti-squeal shim and split pin kit, got the vented and cross drilled discs from ebay, no problems with them and are a bit retro!

[texr2000]

160 isnt bad. that each or a pair? did you get 257mm disc of ebay? or the smaller 2.8?

[Vista]

I've just learn't something I didn't know about the RD discs, apparently whilst they do eliminate pad overhang, they suffer from under hang instead as the pads overlap the inner edge of the disc. Which unless the under hang is much smaller than the overhang present on 2.8i discs, makes them pretty pointless.

 

It's being discussed here

 

http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthread.php?t=323959

[texr2000]

yeah i dont see the advantage of that. i googled 260mm disc and found this. oddly i cant view your link as 'm not a member but i can google and view posts on their site ....

 

http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthread.php?t=141730

 

http://www.gsfcarparts.com/parts/service-parts/brake-discs-pads

Even cheaper from GSF

 

Capri 2.8

Overall height: 31.8mm Disc thickness: 20.0mm Min thickness: 19.0mm Mountings: 4 Centre diameter: 68.0mm Disc diameter: 245.0mm

 

E30 325

Overall height: 35.1mm Disc thickness: 22.0mm Min thickness: 20.4mm Mountings: 4 Centre diameter: 66.0mm Disc diameter: 260.0mm 

[texr2000]

what i read on that site is that the rally design ones are just BMW ones modded?????

 

im wondering if to just order super cheap pads and 2.8 disc off ebay and fit them to see if issue is solved then if it does look for E30 disc

[EscortDan]

I had a set of princess 4 pots that were useless, once they were off the car you could see why, 3 out 4 pistons on both calipers were rusted in and would not mve even with compressed air blasted through there.

 

Once they were out, insides cleaned up and new pistons and they worked a treat!

[texr2000]

I ordered ebay special £30 a pair 2.8 disc and nipped in to unipart while at work and they actually had austin princess Pads on the self, as not sold any at all on system i did them a favor and gave them £5 for them

 

SO when disc come will clean out caliper and fit new pads and disc and see what happens.

 

Went into GSF and said 12 all in per disc for a E30 £24 a pair!!!! once i find out more info my buy one and then take that along with a spare disc to machine shop and see what can be one

[mr sideways]

Have a look at the "capri sport" brake upgrade site. It lists what modern ford stuff fits the oldies.

I have the 260 GTR setup my my mk1 escort yb turbo, its basically granada 2.9 discs with rs turbo series 2 calipers.

Although sliding calipers,they have a huge piston for better mechanical advantage- much bigger than the princess 4 pot-

And its one piston is inboard, so is in the cooling air at all times.

 

Piece of p**s to fit too.

[Rally Pack 2000]

I've just learn't something I didn't know about the RD discs, apparently whilst they do eliminate pad overhang, they suffer from under hang instead as the pads overlap the inner edge of the disc. Which unless the under hang is much smaller than the overhang present on 2.8i discs, makes them pretty pointless.

 

It's being discussed here

 

http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthread.php?t=323959

Im a newbie here and this thread is a few months old now but I thought I would add to it as it was only this year I had decided to do a brake upgrade as the M16 Solid disk set up on my Mk2 was a bit lacklustre. I read everything I could on forums and the net trying to choose between modern alloy 4 pot calipers and the old princess type.

 

Willwood was the most common upgrade but at least half of those that tried them werent satisfied either from the caliper flexing due it its lightweight construction or flexing at the fitting adapter. Hi Spec got better reviews but there didnt seem that many had tried to give me a definitive appraisal. AP Racing and Elcan users were generally always pleased with their brakes but the cost was much higher. Years ago however I went thirdsies in a Mk2 Pinto Cosworth conversion with twin 48's with AP Monte Carlo and 10.5in vented disks for track day type events. First time out one of the disk bells let go and destroyed the wheel caliper disk guard. Although probably not the calipers fault I thought if i got the same again it would always be at the back of your mind as you drove along that they may let go at any time. Its no fun if you dont have trust in your own brakes.

 

So im my search I came across someone who listed at least 10 different brake setups and the one he said gave him the most confidence and the impression of best braking was a cheap Princess setup with standard pads. They were low maintenance compared with competition minded alloy calipers as they were meant for a lumbering road car after all. I wasnt going to put on alloy hups or alloy spring platforms so the old skool robust and heavy Iron calipers kind of appealed to me.True I had concerns about their excessive weight but in comparison with an M16 that weighed 3.8kgs compared to the princess 4.5kgs I thought it was acceptable. No separate adapters its just all solid metal. I found a nice set completely refurbished with stainless inserts and acquired a set of anti squeal shims that Big Red sells that no one else seems to offer with stainless pins.

 

I researched the overhang problem and originally felt it wasted too much of the pad area. Some have mentioned here that is 10mm but I think you will find it only overlaps 5mm or so. When you think about it the larger disks are only 10mm larger overall to make the pads fit so technically only 5mm larger on the radius. Anyways I ended up ordering some 257mm vented disks from Classic rally In Ireland. theirs are a fair bit more expensive but they arent re-drilled and made for the job they simply have the 4 stud holes. I did get caught however as they showed an incorrect photo of the disks and I selected these as they didnt have the vent on the outward face so I assumed that the underhang problem wouldnt arise. When the disks arrived they unfortunately had the inner groove for the vent and when I raised the issue they said thats the way they are didnt reply to any of my emails after that on the issue. I was concerned that as the pads wear the would develop a inner lip and when it came time for their removal I may never get them out again! I was tempted to send the disks back because i was a bit upset about the false photo and being fobbed off a bit by the company but the costs to send them back all the way from Australia was over 50% of their worth so I didnt bother. I sort have come to terms though that the underhang problem is nowhere near as bad as the overhang problem and this is why I thought I should reply to perfectly valid question by Vista is it worth getting these disks after all. the answer is yes it is worth getting the disks. I have attached some photos and you will see that due to the slightly oval shape of the pad that wasted surface area on overhang is far greater than when in underhang. Only a small area in the bottom centre of the pad will there be only a few millimetres of underhang and it would be easy enough to grind this area off beforehand to prevent the pad locking in from the formation of a lip.

 

To the posters original reference to Greenstuff pads I also found funny because I had fitted Greestuff pads to the M16 and the lacklustre braking made me think it was time for an upgrade. So I went and bought the whole kit as you can see from the photo. It emerged later however that many werent that impressed with greenstuff so not having fitted the Princess kit I fitted a set of Ferodo pads and BAM the brakes werent that bad after all. I suspect any remnant sponginess is due to the car having its original brake lines from 1979. So even though the car will now get its Princess upgrade I probably wouldnt have done so if I had bought better pads in the first place. So texr2000 you have done the right thing to change the disks and stick with the princess calipers just ditch the greenstuff. Many suggested to me the Ferodo DS2500 which is sort of a semi road / track day pad but its for an every day driver road car so I went with their DS performance pad instead that doesnt require as much heat to kick in and grip well fro cold. Again sorry for the late reply but I thought my experiences may be helpful to others consider the old Princesses.

 

[Vista]

Good comprehensive answer, like it! 

[mr_capri3000]

I also agree princess calipers can be a great little setup I have them on mine and they work great and I'm using green stuff. I'm sure I'm using cosworth disc tho my mate made the setup for me with all the spacers needed that's what he had on his 350 bhp mk2 cortina and that's what's on my chevy capri a very good setup indeed he swapped to a Porsche setup and hated it compared to the princess option so swapped it back till I think he ended up with Aston Martin brakes in the end but he's an engineer and can make anything fit and work he's so handy to no. Lol.

[deltamal]

I'm happy with my Princesses!

[texr2000]

 

To the posters original reference to Greenstuff pads I also found funny because I had fitted Greestuff pads to the M16 and the lacklustre braking made me think it was time for an upgrade. So I went and bought the whole kit as you can see from the photo. It emerged later however that many werent that impressed with greenstuff so not having fitted the Princess kit I fitted a set of Ferodo pads and BAM the brakes werent that bad after all. I suspect any remnant sponginess is due to the car having its original brake lines from 1979. So even though the car will now get its Princess upgrade I probably wouldnt have done so if I had bought better pads in the first place. So texr2000 you have done the right thing to change the disks and stick with the princess calipers just ditch the greenstuff. Many suggested to me the Ferodo DS2500 which is sort of a semi road / track day pad but its for an every day driver road car so I went with their DS performance pad instead that doesnt require as much heat to kick in and grip well fro cold. Again sorry for the late reply but I thought my experiences may be helpful to others consider the old Princesses.

 

 

Wow what a reply! thanks for all the info, i think maybe i'll follow ur lead and get the bigger 257 disc and ditch these pads. i never really been much of a EBC pads fan, i had red stuff on my Focus RS and they fell apart within 8k road miles! everyone on the owners club used DS2500. since then i always been a Ferodo fan, i'm currently using DSPerformance on my caterham as think i'd struggle to get DS2500 warm enough due to lighter weight. So think i may do a full strip down and clean up of the brakes with new materials this winter.

[Rally Pack 2000]

Wow what a reply! thanks for all the info, i think maybe i'll follow ur lead and get the bigger 257 disc and ditch these pads. i never really been much of a EBC pads fan, i had red stuff on my Focus RS and they fell apart within 8k road miles! everyone on the owners club used DS2500. since then i always been a Ferodo fan, i'm currently using DSPerformance on my caterham as think i'd struggle to get DS2500 warm enough due to lighter weight. So think i may do a full strip down and clean up of the brakes with new materials this winter.

LOL sorry if I rambled I get carried away trying to make sure I havent forgotten anything! The DS Performance pads seem to be often overlooked in favour of the more competition orientated DS2500 but for a road car and adding vented disks I thought the DS pads would work better from cold. Would love to hear back how you find the setup when its all in. Good luck

[texr2000]

Wont be too soon as im out the country for 18months.... i wanted to do it sooner...but i been using the car allot since selling my Daily, and as it does stop and passed MOT i dont wanna put it off the road. once i get back i reckon a overhaul would be well needed. oddly i'll be in Australia and NZ

[Rally Pack 2000]

Wont be too soon as im out the country for 18months.... i wanted to do it sooner...but i been using the car allot since selling my Daily, and as it does stop and passed MOT i dont wanna put it off the road. once i get back i reckon a overhaul would be well needed. oddly i'll be in Australia and NZ

 

Oh cool, you should find a nice cheap Mk2 run around while your here, Mk1s are a bit up in price these days but bargain Mk2s are still to be found. If your ever in Sydney let me know.