Scortedvan Posted April 15, 2020 Report Share Posted April 15, 2020 HI All, I hope everyone is keeping well in these strange times! I hope I am putting this in the correct section? Basically I am looking at replacing the pinto engine from my mk1 escort with an st170 unit. I've considered it for a while, and I'm trying to work out if its a good idea or not! I should point out that Im not doing this for power at all really, I just enjoy the process more than anything particularly installing an aftermarket management system. That said I don't want to sell all my pinto setup only to find there is a big issue with fitting the st170 setup... My plan is to use a standard st170 engine with a retroford water rail, and a motorbike throttle body setup from danst engineering, which will include an me221 management system and fpr. I want to use the standard mk1 escort fuel tank with a return connection fitted, and I'll drill out the outlet in the bottom to suit the larger connection to a bosch 044 fuel pump. The car already has a type 9 fitted and a grp4 big (really does seem huge!) trans tunnel, and a standard cross member - and i plan on using the retro ford engine mounts and a retro ford sump. Based on the above, can anyone see any issues that I am likely to encounter? My biggest worry is that ill find the engine wont fit for some reason - as I don't really want to bash/chop anything around! Also in terms of fitting the engine, I'm space limited so once the car is in position i wont really be able to move it around - will the st engine and type 9 go in through the top OK? Sorry for the long post, I just want to have everything right in my own head before I commit! Oh and if anyone has any parts that could help - mainly an exhaust -let me know! Kind Regards Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DT36 Posted April 15, 2020 Report Share Posted April 15, 2020 Engine will fit without any major issues. Not sure if you need to incorporate a swirl pot to your fuel system, but I think you might have to. @katana should be able to answer this one for you. I would also look at some of the components such as sump and engine mounts, manufactured by Neil Dunne. They seem to have a good name and are also popular on these conversions. Have you considered if you are going to be running the VVT or are you deleting it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scortedvan Posted April 15, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 15, 2020 Hi there, Thanks for the reply. Yes im hoping it would fit without issue, but as always there are anomalies so im interested to see whats been encountered before. Good point on the swirl pot - i have been scouting around and a lot of people suggest one is not needed due to the shape of the tank, providing its never ran too low its pretty efficient at gravity feeding the pump. Id rather not have one to be honest as i would like the boot to remain standard to look at inside, and also i have no intention of tracking the car. Im happy to be told differently though? And thanks for the heads up on mounts etc, most if the parts i mentioned i already have (pending a successful sale of my parts) but i’ll have a look now as i do need an exhaust, Ive not found anything suitable yet. In terms of vvt, i definitely want to use it. Mainly because looking at the spec sheet, the me221 allows for full closed loop pwm control of it, as opposed to others where the solenoid is simply operated as a binary open loop output. And as i said, I'm not chasing numbers in the slightest, just keen to go through the process if that makes sense? Kind regards Joe 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katana Posted April 15, 2020 Report Share Posted April 15, 2020 Swirl pot isn't necessary with a std tank - as you say, don't run it too low and it will feed fine. But you don't need the Bosch 044 pump - maybe if you were chasing big 250hp numbers maybe but for 'normal' use it draws too many amps - a smaller pump will suffice up to 200hp! A Zetec and a T9 mated together will go in through the top but do not expect it to be easy and without scraping some paint, unless you can drop the crossmember to give some space, The Retroford SS exhaust is expensive but looks and fits great - I went for the 2.25" system. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scortedvan Posted April 15, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 15, 2020 Hi there, And again thanks for the reply. Good news about the swirl pot, that fits with my plans! Regards the fuel pump, i was also considering one from an early merc clk/slk as they are fitted in a neat little cradle along with a filter - do you have any views on this or recommendations for a more suitable pump? Definetly not bothered about power! If it will come from the top thats great, funnily ive just spun the car around so its in a position where i can get the engine crane to the front of the car now and get the engine in and out the garage. I can drop the subframe down lower no problem, and like i said the tunnel is huge, it starts more or less in line with the heater matrix connections. This should make life easier do you think? One last thing that springs to mind - where would the gear lever finish up in relation to where it resides now, does the st setup move it backwards or forwards do you know? And does the prop generally need modifying afterwards to fit? Thanks everyone for your time, Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notenoughtime Posted April 15, 2020 Report Share Posted April 15, 2020 Gearbox should sit where it is now with the correct mounts you can buy a simple alloy cradle that holds filter and pump together I’ll find some pics what I’ve done before Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scortedvan Posted April 15, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 15, 2020 Hi, Thanks that would be great. Ive seen some items on ebay that look ok, but the prices of them vary so much its hard to know what is quality and what is not! Any pics would be great though. By the way thanks again for the pointer on ebay, the one you mentioned is the one I have provisionally bought. I have my pinto setup for sale now, so all being well it will sell at the weekend and i can make a start! Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notenoughtime Posted April 15, 2020 Report Share Posted April 15, 2020 I made this up, 044 pump cosworth filter and couple of fittings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notenoughtime Posted April 15, 2020 Report Share Posted April 15, 2020 2 90 deg full flow an6 https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AN-6-JIC-BLACK-90-Degree-FULL-FLOW-Elbow-FEMALE-COUPLER-Oil-Hose-Fitting-Adapter/272610758092?hash=item3f78de0dcc:g:GjUAAOSwSlBY3FH6 1 an6 male/ male join 1 filter fitting 1 pump fitting used an10 on the pump inlet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scortedvan Posted April 15, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 15, 2020 Brilliant, thanks for taking the time to post those images. Something like that would be ideal, ill have a look into the listings and start speccing things out! Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notenoughtime Posted April 15, 2020 Report Share Posted April 15, 2020 Cradle https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dual-Double-Twin-044-Walbro-Fuel-Pump-Bracket-Clamp-Cradle-Billet-Black/302575063880?hash=item4672e11348:g:R9kAAOSwyQtVwigg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katana Posted April 15, 2020 Report Share Posted April 15, 2020 If you are set on using a 044 - a word of caution - there are a lot of counterfeit copies around and even retailers have been caught out! Buy from reliable sources and if it appears a bargain - warning bells! Some race teams replace their pumps every year so can be a good source but as I mentioned earlier these draw 11 - 12amps, leccy fans similar and with all the other loads an alternator with min. 75 amp output would be my recommendation. A lower spec suitable pump could be something like this - https://www.glencoeltd.co.uk/bosch-fuel-pumps/bosch-fuel-pumps/bosch-fuel-pump-0580464070/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notenoughtime Posted April 15, 2020 Report Share Posted April 15, 2020 13 minutes ago, katana said: If you are set on using a 044 - a word of caution - there are a lot of counterfeit copies around and even retailers have been caught out! Buy from reliable sources and if it appears a bargain - warning bells! Some race teams replace their pumps every year so can be a good source but as I mentioned earlier these draw 11 - 12amps, leccy fans similar and with all the other loads an alternator with min. 75 amp output would be my recommendation. A lower spec suitable pump could be something like this - https://www.glencoeltd.co.uk/bosch-fuel-pumps/bosch-fuel-pumps/bosch-fuel-pump-0580464070/ There are so many other pumps around now as Katana says, sytec etc all the same size as 044 but you don’t have to have the 044 specifically Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scortedvan Posted April 16, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2020 Thanks both! Yes I'm not dead set on an 044, they just seem to be favoured when researching pumps. Really i am happy to use anything that can deliver sufficient pressure and flow for standard power. These were the setups i mentioned earlier, one from a w202 merc and one from an early Porsche (928 i think?). Either would clean up well with a new filter, and would mount quite nicely i think? They seem to sell for around £50 complete. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scortedvan Posted April 19, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2020 Well to answer the question in the thread title, ‘To Be’! My engine and parts should hopefully arrive in the week, and then I’ll need to order an alternator fitting kit and a set of engine mounts from retro ford - they seem to do the job really well from what I’ve read. That should be enough to get the engine mounted in the car. The only question mark is the flywheel, I have an 1800zetec flywheel that i want to use with my pinto clutch but i understand i need it drilling to suit - and none of the guys that i woild normally use are working at the moment. Im sure ill figure something, but if any one has any suggestions please let me know! Thanks again for your help, i will undoubtedly be asking many more questions! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katana Posted April 19, 2020 Report Share Posted April 19, 2020 Although I got my 1800 zetec fly predrilled from Retroford, I would imagine it shouldn't be difficult with DIY tools - drill and tap (a pillar drill would be best). If you make up a plate and cover centering tool - I used a socket, extension bar and masking tape to pack out the shaft, mount the disc and cover all centred on the fly and then scribe the cover mount holes, centre punch them, drill and tap ( I think they are M8 or M10?) Measure and check twice and go steady but obviously if not confident then best wait till you can get to an engineering shop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scortedvan Posted April 19, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2020 Yeah this is a definite option but i need to get access to a pillar drill as you say, otherwise i can see it going particularly well! I may but the bullet and order one from retroford, but they seem incredibly expensive. I have a bit of time to figure that anyway, theres plenty of cleaning up and preparation to do in the meantime as I’m sure you know all too well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scortedvan Posted April 20, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2020 Evening all! So after selling my entire pinto engine, carb and ignition setup yesterday... the guy that supposedly had the st170 engine and some of the conversion parts on a pallet ready to send today let me down. No idea why, but suddenly he went from 'everything's ready, heres the shipping company details' to 'its too much hassle i'm not going to send it'. Which pissed me off somewhat. Id double and triple checked that it was all good to go before selling mine. Luckily though, the engines are cheap and common enough so I managed to find one pretty easily and for a good price, and I've ended up buying the stage 1 fitting kit from retroford. I swapped the clutch and flywheel from the kit, for the standard Lucas alternator fitting kit they do which looks good. So today was pretty stressful, complete despair to relief in a short space of time. I do have a couple a new questions if anyone has the time to answer: 1. The standard cam cover breather protrudes from the back of the cover, which seems as though it may foul on the bulkhead. Is this the case - and whats the usual workaround? Kind Regards Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DT36 Posted April 20, 2020 Report Share Posted April 20, 2020 If you cut it and block it off, is there depth to put a fitting on the side and run to a catch tank? If you look at the replica BDA rockers for a Zetec, the breather is already on the side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scortedvan Posted April 20, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2020 Hi there, thanks for the pic, thats very helpful! Yes I can definitely chop it off and fit a fuel cell/bulkhead type AN fitting on the side of the cover without too much bother if thats the done thing. I just want to known in advance of lifting the engine if it will foul, which I think it probably will. If I cut it off beforehand it should make life easier! Kind Regards Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scortedvan Posted April 21, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2020 Hello again all! Firstly is this the right place on the forum for this, or should it be moved elsewhere? Secondly (and pleasingly) the packages have started arriving, cue the disapproving looks from the rest of the family! The first being my 1800 zetec flywheel that I am going to modify to take a pinto clutch (this was suggested above and i have now managed to get hold of a drill press so should save a fair bit of money!). Ive measured the witness mark on the flywheel at 220mm which is correct for a standard 1.8 zetec, so im hoping this proves its the correct flywheel as i only have the ebay descriptions word for it otherwise! Its certainly not a 2litre and looks correct based on other images online. There is a very slight overhang of the pinto clutch cover plate over the chamfered edge of the flywheel (3mm around the edge) but this doesn't look to present an issue and seems the same as other pictures I've seen online. Ive got a brand new m8x1.25 tap on the way and a couple of decent bits so once they arrive ill get that done. For the time being ive just dropped the dowels out - i will refit these once the clutch plates holes are sorted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DT36 Posted April 21, 2020 Report Share Posted April 21, 2020 I'm going to play Devils Advocate here and say that you might get some balancing issues higher up the rev range if you drill and fit this yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scortedvan Posted April 21, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2020 Not at all - all thoughts/suggestions/criticisms are more than welcome. Balancing is a consideration, but I've made a few calls and I'm struggling to find anyone available to do it for months. So in the interest of getting some progress and getting the engine in the car in a timely manner this seems like the best approach. Obviously if the cover isnt perfectly centered then it wont get fitted but I feel confident I can get it right. And ultimately - if i get it in the car and there are vibrations when I come to drive it, I will hopefully be in a better position to spend the money on a pre-drilled one from retro ford 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DT36 Posted April 21, 2020 Report Share Posted April 21, 2020 15 minutes ago, Scortedvan said: Not at all - all thoughts/suggestions/criticisms are more than welcome. Balancing is a consideration, but I've made a few calls and I'm struggling to find anyone available to do it for months. So in the interest of getting some progress and getting the engine in the car in a timely manner this seems like the best approach. Obviously if the cover isnt perfectly centered then it wont get fitted but I feel confident I can get it right. And ultimately - if i get it in the car and there are vibrations when I come to drive it, I will hopefully be in a better position to spend the money on a pre-drilled one from retro ford Give Mike at Lyons Engineering (Brynmawr) a ring. He did a job for me last week and is working, as it's a small family run business. He dynamically balanced my bottom rotating mass for me on my Pinto. Thoroughly recommend him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notenoughtime Posted April 21, 2020 Report Share Posted April 21, 2020 All the engineering company’s Ive rang this week are working Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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