Fitted Twin Cam Anti Roll Bar Is This Normal??

[texr2000]

Evening all,

fitted a twin cam anti roll bar on my mk1 with anti dive kit as after reading through searches thats what seems to be recommended. I fitted it with out additional washers. Seems to have added loads more castor as the shocks are at quite and angle now, and the wheel sits further forward. After a short spin up the road Car drives so much better now almost like having power steering haha. I also read you cant add to much castor.....

 

What a pain to fit, standard one slides in and out easy, this one is quite a bit shorter so lever bars and ratchet strap where in lots of use.

 

Here is some pics of how it sits now and how strut etc sit.

The question about whats normal....the bush in the cross member seems to be under allot more strain as the track control arm is at quite an angle, need to retrack it 2moz as its toeing in as the wheel moved forward and the rack is now also at a angle so pulling wheel in.

 

[joe1600]

That doesn't look right to me but could be wrong. Everything looks to be under a lot of strain. Has the strut top deformed at all??

This is a picture of a original twin cam for reference.

[texr2000]

the anti dive kit is fitted to the original anti roll bar mounts. the dive kit was fitted years ago, but from memory nocked off the welded on nuts, now use a spring washer and nut.

 

once car is under weight im sure its all less stressed as anti roll bar would push back the strut.

 

looking at your pic looks like the anti roll bar mounts further back

[joe1600]

I remember reading somewhere that twin cams had different roll bar mounts but surely the anti dive kit should compensate for that ???? 

 

Maybe it would be worth putting a couple of shims in to correct the geometry, think you can put between 1&3

[texr2000]

yeah i thought about adding shims but was hard enough getting the anti roll bar through the track control arm as it is! yeah my understanding of twin cam mounts was the double width kit.

 

Looking at this pic of standard vs TW there isnt loads of difference (well about an inch)  but once fitted makes alot of changes. if i didnt have the anti dive then surly it would pull the wheel even further forward!

 

 

[meXEco]

I'm pretty sure you need the correct twincam rollbar mounts also-that dont look right...

[texr2000]

I thought that was the double with kit as roll bar is wider.

[Stiggy]

I'd go with the extra castor.

 

Nice positive turn in.

[aden]

The double width mounts also have the mtg points for the roll bar further back to counter act this mate, it won't work correctly without the right mounts

[aden]

Forgot to add iirc it was designed for rally cars with high suspension so when it's low like your car it pulls the wrong way, had this problem with my mk1 mate

[meXEco]

Double width kit is for the rubber rollbar mounts and does just that-it doubles the width of the rubbers and brackets for slightly better location-it does nothing else-i think standard mounts/rubbers are 1 inch wide-double width about 2 inch wide. I take it you have something like this:

 

http://www.rallydesign.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=7213

 

All that does is give wider rubber mounts. The twincam uses different front chassis mounts which have the mounts set further back (towards back of car) approx an inch/2 inch which would put your strut where it should be. Raising the car as it is now would pull everything even more forward.Antidive kit mounts the bar lower with an extra mounting rubber for the centre of the rollbar. I'd fit the other one back on or get correct chassis mounts.

[5tox]

I always thought the idea of fitting a twin cam anti roll bar was to pull the wheels forward as pictured for better handling

 

perhaps they are a little too far forward, i couldn't tell ya.

an interesting read though, will be interesting to see how it sits with the correct mounts as i was planning on buying a twin cam anti roll bar myself

[aden]

Yeah the double width kit also give u wider roll bar mtgs and bushes but it also moves the the mtg points and are sold to be used with the twink anti roll bar

[aden]

http://www.rallydesign.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=15434

[aden]

Shortly after buying my first Mk1 RS Escort back in the early 1980’s, I discovered that there were differences in the Anti Roll Bars that were fitted to the RS range when compared with the standard cars. One of the most noticeable differences being the length from the front cross piece of the bar back to were it mounts in the Track Control Arm, The Twincam/Mexico style bar is about ¾” shorter than the standard one.

 

A guy who had been around Mk1’s for much longer than I, told me that this was because RS’s were fitted with 13” wheels as opposed to the 12” wheels on a standard car. The shorter bar was needed to pull the larger wheel and tyre forward so that they wouldn’t foul or catch on the back edge of the wing or the area of the front footwells. It sounded a reasonable enough reason - and in my innocence I believed him!

 

Sometime later I discovered for myself that the reason he had given was wrong (I’m trying to be diplomatic here). Yes the rearward arms of the bar were shorter but the mounting point was moved further back on the mounting bracket which to the best of my knowledge left the wheel only very little further forward, this had the effect of a very slight increase in castor – or the self centring effect of the steering as it is known. I think the reason for the shorter arms was to increase the effective stiffness of the bar.

 

All of this means that if you are using a standard bar, you must use the standard bracket and if you are using the Twincam/Mexico style bar then you must use the mounting brackets that go with that bar. If you mix these items up you will end up with your steering angles all wrong and a seriously miss-handling car.

 

That’s all well and good, but what if you have a Twincam/Mexico anti roll bar but cant find the proper mounts to go with it – well the answer is quite simple, do what Ford did, they didn’t make one specially for the Twincam/Mexico etc, they just took standard mounts and modified them. *found this on the web explains it better than I can lol*

[Stiggy]

Shortly after buying my first Mk1 RS Escort back in the early 1980’s, I discovered that there were differences in the Anti Roll Bars that were fitted to the RS range when compared with the standard cars. One of the most noticeable differences being the length from the front cross piece of the bar back to were it mounts in the Track Control Arm, The Twincam/Mexico style bar is about ¾” shorter than the standard one.

 

A guy who had been around Mk1’s for much longer than I, told me that this was because RS’s were fitted with 13” wheels as opposed to the 12” wheels on a standard car. The shorter bar was needed to pull the larger wheel and tyre forward so that they wouldn’t foul or catch on the back edge of the wing or the area of the front footwells. It sounded a reasonable enough reason - and in my innocence I believed him!

 

Sometime later I discovered for myself that the reason he had given was wrong (I’m trying to be diplomatic here). Yes the rearward arms of the bar were shorter but the mounting point was moved further back on the mounting bracket which to the best of my knowledge left the wheel only very little further forward, this had the effect of a very slight increase in castor – or the self centring effect of the steering as it is known. I think the reason for the shorter arms was to increase the effective stiffness of the bar.

 

All of this means that if you are using a standard bar, you must use the standard bracket and if you are using the Twincam/Mexico style bar then you must use the mounting brackets that go with that bar. If you mix these items up you will end up with your steering angles all wrong and a seriously miss-handling car.

 

That’s all well and good, but what if you have a Twincam/Mexico anti roll bar but cant find the proper mounts to go with it – well the answer is quite simple, do what Ford did, they didn’t make one specially for the Twincam/Mexico etc, they just took standard mounts and modified them. *found this on the web explains it better than I can lol*

 

Nice quote from Neil Fletcher Racing.

 

http://www.neilfletcherracing.co.uk/mex_arb.htm

[texr2000]

Thanks for all the info. I assumed everyone that has them has a double width kit (as anti dive is unliked) what i didnt realise was that it moved the mounting holes back. so i can either mod the one that's on there.... or just order a double width kit and its job done..... Be easier if the Anti dive was sold with same mounts as double width kit..... now thinking could loose anti dive as i assume with out will gain more castor, as driving it as it is made me realise its good to have.

 

UPDATE

 

Decided to order a Double Width kit, only £40 quid, then gives me options. Also Can use Anti Dive or just the Double Width kit and see what works best.

[texr2000]

I'd go with the extra castor.

 

Nice positive turn in.

 I have to say it drives amazing with the castor it has at the moment! self centers good and turn in is so easy. but when i look at the way the suspension is i just think its all gonna PING off soon haha

 

The double width mounts also have the mtg points for the roll bar further back to counter act this mate, it won't work correctly without the right mounts

 

I think this is where i went wrong i didn't realise it also moved the mounting points. May call around monday and see if i can get just the mounts and i dont need the whole kit if using anti dive.

 

Double width kit is for the rubber rollbar mounts and does just that-it doubles the width of the rubbers and brackets for slightly better location-it does nothing else-i think standard mounts/rubbers are 1 inch wide-double width about 2 inch wide. I take it you have something like this:

 

http://www.rallydesign.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=7213

 

All that does is give wider rubber mounts. The twincam uses different front chassis mounts which have the mounts set further back (towards back of car) approx an inch/2 inch which would put your strut where it should be. Raising the car as it is now would pull everything even more forward.Antidive kit mounts the bar lower with an extra mounting rubber for the centre of the rollbar. I'd fit the other one back on or get correct chassis mounts.

 

Thats the bar. mine is from Burton tho. Using anti dive will just mean i will loose a little castor compared to just double width kit. yah as nice as the short drive was and the fact was so noticeable gonna wait till can get brackets before using it.  

 

I always thought the idea of fitting a twin cam anti roll bar was to pull the wheels forward as pictured for better handling

 

perhaps they are a little too far forward, i couldn't tell ya.

an interesting read though, will be interesting to see how it sits with the correct mounts as i was planning on buying a twin cam anti roll bar myself

 

Haha ill play about fitting everything and you can get it right first time. easier than searching on here as there is so much to read and is so mixed..... hence why just went with it and now ended up on here asking for help

 

Yeah the double width kit also give u wider roll bar mtgs and bushes but it also moves the the mtg points and are sold to be used with the twink anti roll bar

[texr2000]

FInally Fitted Double Width kit.... Allot easier to get anit roll bar on with these mounts. didnt fit anti dive and at a quick look wasnt sure holes lined up... looks to have put everything in a better position and under less stress, not driven it yet.

 

The mounts arnt perfect, the plate moves them out, whats fine. But bolts in kit are too long so hit chassis rail thats directly above it, had to pack them out with washers 

 

Surprised how it all works as TC bar is shorter then TC mounts are further back....surly works out the same as longer bar mounted further forward.....  

 

 

 

 

 

 

P.s I know its not the cleanest underneath, being a 1300e means the old owners use to love waxoiling and undersealing it

[meXEco]

Thats better.

[Vista]

 

 

P.s I know its not the cleanest underneath, being a 1300e means the old owners use to love waxoiling and undersealing it

 

 

It doesn't need to be clean, it needs to be rust free and it looks like all the waxoyl and underseal has stood you in good stead! 

[texr2000]

It doesn't need to be clean, it needs to be rust free and it looks like all the waxoyl and underseal has stood you in good stead! 

 

This is true, not been painted for over 15 years and it has a few scabs now, but under side is all solid still. Never been able to get a good enough paint match to do a few little repairs. i want to put some fresh paint on it but would want to strip it all off and start a fresh but would be years before its back on the road......

[aden]

being shorter and thicker and with wider mounting points means you get a heck of a lot less roll

[Rich T]

On 6/27/2013 at 15:33, texr2000 said:

FInally Fitted Double Width kit.... Allot easier to get anit roll bar on with these mounts. didnt fit anti dive and at a quick look wasnt sure holes lined up... looks to have put everything in a better position and under less stress, not driven it yet.

 

The mounts arnt perfect, the plate moves them out, whats fine. But bolts in kit are too long so hit chassis rail thats directly above it, had to pack them out with washers 

 

Surprised how it all works as TC bar is shorter then TC mounts are further back....surly works out the same as longer bar mounted further forward.....  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Im going to be fitting all of the suspension on my car this evening to see how it all fits then taking it all back off again to i can paint/treat/underseal etc the chassis and under the inner wings.

Making sure itll be a straight forward bolt on jobby the 2nd time round.

As sead ^^ the outer mount bolts bottom out on the chassis so its something that needs addressing.

 

Whats the best way to go about it? 

 

Washers as above?

Cutting the bolts down to suit?

Drilling holes into the chassis?

 

My only issue with drilling the chassis is the hole is going to have to be at least 10mm and the chassis isnt very wide at the front. Worried about affecting the structual integrity.

Especially as there maybe a little extra stress on the chassis from the uprated rollbar.

 

Rich

 

Edit

 

Just having a google and found this   https://www.historicmotorsport.net/shop/new-parts/body/escort-mk1-mk2-twin-cam-anti-rollbar-brackets/   . Washers between the clamp and bracket. An option?

Ive tried already tightening the clamps down on the bushes with the bar fitted and tbh im wondering if this is the way to go.

[colr6]

Don't drill the chassis or put washers between the clamp and bracket. If you put washers between the clamp and bracket it won't tighten up on the bush correctly. You could put a few washers on the bolt and if necessary trim the bolt down.