Throttle body Conversions, pro's + cons?

[PIG]

I will say this though for my old management on my cossie, regardless of how warm/cold it was it always started on the button and if left to idle on its own would jump up and down the revs for about 10 sec's and then settle down. I know there's been a couple of posts on here saying there's was shite at that when mine was quite good...........it was the engine that was shite

Your turbo cossie wasn't on an aftermarket ecu + throttle bodies though mate , it was on a standard production car ecu/map which has had 1000's of hours of development by a major motor manufactor . If you fit a new out the box system then it's only as good as the time you spend programming it at £90 an hour !!!!!!! .........

 

 

 

i think what jon is saying gaz is about the autronic system that mark sheed does,his price is for the completed job m8,still expensive but the best genrally is tbh m8.m.a.d's price includes loom,instal,mapping and if you upgrade free remapping as well aparrently

[alladdin]

there's lots of engine management myths as well which i can now crush for you !!!!!!!

1= your car never goes out of tune on management . This is bollox because everything wears/moves when you drive it , mines been set up a few months back and is now running too rich so needs doing again .

2= your car will start up and idle like a dream no matter what the temperature outside . This is bollox unless you spend every morning for weeks programming the ecu to different air temps and cold start maps . I have to sit in the garage for a few minutes holding the revs up or it stalls and jerks down the road like a kangeroo !!!!!!!!

3= You'll get more "peak" power . This is bollox as the engine only sees air + fuel so it doesn't care where it comes from , carbs on full throttle will do the same job .

4= your car if fitted with race cams etc will drive nicer . Yes it will BUT only if it's programmed/mapped by a professional with all the gear at £90 an hour who knows what he's doing

So to re-cap is it worth doing Yes and no . Yes , if you've got a race engine on the street which needs all the help it can get to drive nice but i wouldn't bother otherwise to be honest . Budget for £2500-£3000 to do a proper job with new bits and allow plenty of time before it all works !!!!!!!!

 

1. out of interest what "moved" to make it run rich.

 

2. if it dont start and idle on the button its a cobbled up map. (and even ms can run a fast idle valve)

 

3. if carbs and t/b are both tuned for max power on a highly strung engine, the t/b's will give more bhp most other places

 

4. your car will drive better for road use. of course if cocoo the clown sets the map and jets your carbs buy a moped.

 

££££ we agree on that point unless diy is your poison

[Guest MK1gaz]

1. out of interest what "moved" to make it run rich.

 

2. if it dont start and idle on the button its a cobbled up map. (and even ms can run a fast idle valve)

 

3. if carbs and t/b are both tuned for max power on a highly strung engine, the t/b's will give more bhp most other places

 

4. your car will drive better for road use. of course if cocoo the clown sets the map and jets your carbs buy a moped.

 

££££ we agree on that point unless diy is your poison

I'll answer these in order

1= For example a new throttle position sensor will settle in after a bit of use and it's voltage input to the ecu changes in relation to throttle position , this makes the fueling change . Also any slight movement of the crank angle sensor will also effect engine tuning . Unfortunately a highly tuned engine that's driven hard will shake , rattle and roll and losen and move most things bolted to it , hence your highly fussy electronic gizmos will play up .

2= a cold start map etc is very expensive and time consuming to perfect . This is because a car is only cold for a few moments so mapping it is short lived . Also when mapping a car from cold at 15 degrees it won't be the same as starting a car and running it months later when it's 5 degrees , so while your car will always start it won't drive until the engines warmer .

3= a mapped engine will only out perform carbs at any given point in the rpm range if the mapping is spot on and cost a fortune , time = money and it takes plenty of time to do it .

4= A full race engine with high lift cams etc needs all the help it can get in a street car , having finer adjustabilty of the timing and fueling gives it better driveabilty , this is the only advantage of full engine management . This will still depend on the time/money spent on mapping it .

Last but not least the D.I.Y. mapping . Anyone driving up and down the bypass with a laptop is pissing in the wind . Don't bother wasting thousands of pounds on top notch bits and then chuck it all away on micky mouse programming unless you already do it for a living .......

[Guest MK1gaz]

i think what jon is saying gaz is about the autronic system that mark sheed does,his price is for the completed job m8,still expensive but the best genrally is tbh m8.m.a.d's price includes loom,instal,mapping and if you upgrade free remapping as well aparrently

All makes of engine management do the same thing (sparks + fuel) . They all need the same bits to work , all take the same time to fit and all take the same dyno time to perfect . Most tuners use a particular make of ecu because they get them cheaper or know someone .........

[Toby]

That's settled then

 

Points and an SU. Sparks fine, and fueling self correcting!

[Guest MK1gaz]

4 x S.U. carbs would be good , and cheap

[alladdin]

1. out of interest what "moved" to make it run rich.

 

2. if it dont start and idle on the button its a cobbled up map. (and even ms can run a fast idle valve)

 

3. if carbs and t/b are both tuned for max power on a highly strung engine, the t/b's will give more bhp most other places

 

4. your car will drive better for road use. of course if cocoo the clown sets the map and jets your carbs buy a moped.

 

££££ we agree on that point unless diy is your poison

I'll answer these in order

1= For example a new throttle position sensor will settle in after a bit of use and it's voltage input to the ecu changes in relation to throttle position , this makes the fueling change . Also any slight movement of the crank angle sensor will also effect engine tuning . Unfortunately a highly tuned engine that's driven hard will shake , rattle and roll and losen and move most things bolted to it , hence your highly fussy electronic gizmos will play up .

2= a cold start map etc is very expensive and time consuming to perfect . This is because a car is only cold for a few moments so mapping it is short lived . Also when mapping a car from cold at 15 degrees it won't be the same as starting a car and running it months later when it's 5 degrees , so while your car will always start it won't drive until the engines warmer .

3= a mapped engine will only out perform carbs at any given point in the rpm range if the mapping is spot on and cost a fortune , time = money and it takes plenty of time to do it .

4= A full race engine with high lift cams etc needs all the help it can get in a street car , having finer adjustabilty of the timing and fueling gives it better driveabilty , this is the only advantage of full engine management . This will still depend on the time/money spent on mapping it .

Last but not least the D.I.Y. mapping . Anyone driving up and down the bypass with a laptop is pissing in the wind . Don't bother wasting thousands of pounds on top notch bits and then chuck it all away on micky mouse programming unless you already do it for a living .......

here we go

 

1. ford make quite a few cars every year.... they dont recall them for a remap every ??? hopw longs yours been ? build it right ...build it once

 

2. see my last post. i will add tho that as with carbs a known working setup is easily copied, but with an ecu its free and you just upload

 

3. see my last post, facts dont change that quickly. why do you try and cloude it by comparing carbs that are i guess you imply are correctly jetted with management thats not correctly mapped ? if i fitted twin 45's to my robin reliant and jetted up the bypass is that a reflection on the webers ?

 

4. as you say above, the only advantage of management/tb is that its better this is ofset by a greater cost in most cases.

rr time is expensive, pressing buttons is quicker than replacing jets.....

 

just being cheeky, but its a common consideration that people make..... i have a set of webers ive bought , they were advertised gaurenteed to be a1 on a cossy n/a in an esc1 ,,,,, want to swap for your management and t/b's ???? no i didnt think so

[alladdin]

build it right ...build it once

 

 

no offence intended there, you know i love the car.

[Guest MK1gaz]

1. ford make quite a few cars every year.... they dont recall them for a remap every ??? hopw longs yours been ? build it right ...build it once

Fords spend 36,000 hours mapping their standard production cars , even at rolling road rates of £90 an hour you can see how much money this would cost . Also standard fords are shite with shite engines and shite electronics so please don't compare then to mine !!!!!!!!! . The throttle position sensor on mine is brand new and the latest type , it's still only a spring though and springs wear in with use and need a little tweak after a bit . If it moves slighter easier when it wears it alters the voltage to the ecu and this alters the fueling . Mine will now over fuel and foul the plugs unless i return to get the mapping tweaked to suit , it's 4 months old

[alladdin]

1. ford make quite a few cars every year.... they dont recall them for a remap every ??? hopw longs yours been ? build it right ...build it once

Fords spend 36,000 hours mapping their standard production cars , even at rolling road rates of £90 an hour you can see how much money this would cost . Also standard fords are shite with shite engines and shite electronics so please don't compare then to mine !!!!!!!!! . The throttle position sensor on mine is brand new and the latest type , it's still only a spring though and springs wear in with use and need a little tweak after a bit . If it moves slighter easier when it wears it alters the voltage to the ecu and this alters the fueling . Mine will now over fuel and foul the plugs unless i return to get the mapping tweaked to suit , it's 4 months old

 

we arnt talking of mapping tho are we ? we are talking of things moving/bedding in causing a remap requirement ?? and a million fords etc etc etc a year ..... dont... and still start a1 in winter after 150k miles bedding in.

 

(and is you engine not from a s_i_e_r_r_a ie a ford )

 

a tps is a potentiometer not a spring, a spring returns it to zero. if its setup to be zero with some movement spare then bedding in of the spring wont affect it coming to zero

[zetecmk2]

so how does all this cost v performance arguement span out if you get your injection / ecu set up cheaper than carbs? i e a right result! i did get mine cheap as part of an unfinished project (cheaper than 1 dcoe) surely its worth me spending the money i saved, on a rolling road to get a more tractable engine.......therefore spending the same amount of money and ending up with a better set up. dont forget, carbs and injection can be bought second-hand

[oliwally]

1. ford make quite a few cars every year.... they dont recall them for a remap every ??? hopw longs yours been ? build it right ...build it once

 

 

I do these everyday,even on the transits,they come in lacking power,stalling,hardt to start or running rough.

The computer we use checks the PCM calibration and then says to

reprogramme with a new map because ford found the cocked up something and this later map should cure it.

 

Also lets not forget that fords maps are 100% safe and wont damage an engine,i'm sure you could get near 20% increase in power if you spend money on getting it mapped properly.

 

and as for the throttle pot,yes its a spring,it has 2 pieces of metal,sort of shapped like a V travelling over some windings,they wear quite quickly.

there a class action law suit in the states over electric throttles,some people have died as a result,the swarf from these parts rubbing each other short out the contact.

the PCM sees 80% throttle applied while its only 5% or less.

 

And as for the restrictive venturi,please,its there for a reason,it speeds up the air flow,fast air flow means better power.

last thing you need on high strung engine is slow air.

if you spent 100 hours mapping and 100 hours timing/jetting the end result would be almost equal.

outright HP is going to be the same regardless,its just the low down off idle should be better with TB,so driveablillaty is better and they shouldnt suffer from spit back either.

[Toby]

4 x S.U. carbs would be good , and cheap

 

Bike carbs then?

 

One point relating to 000's of hours spent mapping, manufactures / webber (for example) spend months jetting carbs appropriately for production cars, so if the computer is quicker than the manual changing of jets then, time for time, you should get a better set up with an ECU???

[Guest MK1gaz]

Well i'll tell you now folks , the fit and forget mappable injection system doesn't exist . I wish it did but it don't . You still have to re-tune it if you want the best from it so unless they can invent a throttle position sensor (a spring ) that can't shift it's position or wear then it won't happen

[Guest MK1gaz]

and as for the throttle pot,yes its a spring,it has 2 pieces of metal,sort of shapped like a V travelling over some windings,they wear quite quickly.

[4parajon]

I will say this though for my old management on my cossie, regardless of how warm/cold it was it always started on the button and if left to idle on its own would jump up and down the revs for about 10 sec's and then settle down. I know there's been a couple of posts on here saying there's was shite at that when mine was quite good...........it was the engine that was shite

Your turbo cossie wasn't on an aftermarket ecu + throttle bodies though mate , it was on a standard production car ecu/map which has had 1000's of hours of development by a major motor manufactor . If you fit a new out the box system then it's only as good as the time you spend programming it at £90 an hour !!!!!!! .........

 

 

 

 

 

i think what jon is saying gaz is about the autronic system that mark sheed does,his price is for the completed job m8,still expensive but the best genrally is tbh m8.m.a.d's price includes loom,instal,mapping and if you upgrade free remapping as well aparrently

 

cheers P.I.G

[bmxdave]

Whats wrong with good old fashioned DCOE's?

 

Im never going itb, however cool it is. Not only does the cost far outweigh any positives, a well set up pair of carbs will do an equally good job. Plus its nothing new, so its easy to get help when servicing and balancing etc. Your never going to use much less fuel and its never going to be smoother to the point the carbed car is undriveable.

 

In my opinion, the best way to go is those bike carbs. Similar to itb's but with the easyness of carbs. Perfect compromise. You get the benefits of better fuel consumption but still have the characteristics of carbs.

 

At the end of the day though, itbs arent old skool and we know thats all that counts here

[Guest MK1gaz]

Forget bike carbs mate , they're a backwards step from DCOE's so no point fitting them really . It's best to leave them on motorbikes

[Toby]

Forget bike carbs mate , they're a backwards step from DCOE's so no point fitting them really . It's best to leave them on motorbikes

 

Why do you say that?? If they're good enough to fuel engines over a 12,000 rev range are they not pretty clever?

[Fiesta Steve]

Similar to itb's but with the easyness of carbs. Perfect compromise.

 

How are they similar to TB's ?

[RChambers]

*yawn* you can see where this thread is going from miles away...

[Guest MK1gaz]

Why is it that after 40 years of automotive fuel research that Weber (the worlds no1 fuel specalist) hasn't improved or bettered the 1960's DCOE carb with any other carb since it's introduction ? Also people have tried all sorts of combinations of motorbike carbs , fuel injection etc etc and yet the U.K.'s fastest oldskoolfords in a race off the lights still use DCOE's 40+ years later , funny that but true

[bmxdave]

Similar to itb's but with the easyness of carbs. Perfect compromise.

 

How are they similar to TB's ?

 

You have four individual butterfly valves and four indivudual carbs, and they look similar too as well as offer higher flow rates like itb's.

[Fiesta Steve]

Similar to itb's but with the easyness of carbs. Perfect compromise.

 

How are they similar to TB's ?

 

You have four individual butterfly valves and four indivudual carbs, and they look similar too as well as offer higher flow rates like itb's.

 

Webers have individual butterflys too, how would they give a higher flow rate than webers ??

[bmxdave]

Theyre shorter with less resistence. They have to be to handle silly revs.