Forgive my ignorance...... Duratec related

[cossie matt]

Thats fine mate, but you cant build a top spec YB from new for any less either I know I've done it!!

 

Every choice has it's advantages and disadvantages, yes the YB CAN go in on a WXCM but there are aspects of a Duratec installation which are cheaper than a YB install too.

[Guest MK1gaz]

Yes and that's all i'm saying . A standard duratec is shite but a full monty £15,000 one is as good as all the other £15,000 full monty 4 cylinder engines out there . Out of all these engine some will fit easy and some will not . The 16v pinto engines (millingtons , YB's , Warriors , etc ) will fit easier than duratecs and are still Ford based engine types which is better than putting jap crap into an oldskoolford

[cossie matt]

The YB N/A is a great engine but it's old in design and it was always meant to be a turbo engine so the quote about the head flowing more air is rubbish.

Go and have a look at this site www.cncheads.co.uk . Click on the "products" title and scroll down the engine cylinder heads list . By clicking on the "go" button in the far right column you will see the flow charts for each head . You will see a big valve YB head which flows more air than the duratecs can manage . Not cheap at £1250 but cabable of producing 300+bhp never the less

 

Yea it's a good site but pretty narrow minded if you use it as a benchmark for every head out there.

 

SBD's new engine and a couple more customer engines have all done over 300bhp and 195lbft so they must be flowing more air than CNC's heads.

 

I'm not going to get into a huge debate but we've just got to be open minded and not get hung up on minor specifics. Each engine is only as good as the way it has been put together. You could have the best 4 pot in the world but if it's been put together and set up poorly it'll produce poor power

[MK2Ed]

...

 

Call me old fashioned I'd go for the Ford all day long but acknowledge the argument for both engines...

[Retromotorsport]

Matt i've not mentioned your install price ,

 

Well for starters Matts 300bhp duratec engine install would cost twice the price of his old atmo cossie install by the time it's driving

 

 

 

 

 

The thing that everyone has to remember is the like for like costs ..

 

The SBD 300 engine comes with TB's/ECU , dry sump system, clutch etc etc .. all you add is engine mounts and a bellhousing to suit your car .. add the exhaust and away you drive ..

 

I've never seen a 300Bhp atmo YB .. of 2000cc, the best i've seen was 287bhp and cost a fortune for the engine alone..

 

So instal costs are about equal for a reliable engine.. and yes that means dry sumped, these engines are stressed, more so the older designs, I mean during the Cosworth Tests the Duratec made 97 hours under load .. thats like 19 years worth of racing (1/2 hour running over 10 round championship ) and a stressed YB wouldn't last that, the best ones (250 and above)are rebuilt every year ..

 

The YB and the 8V are brillient engines ..the 8 valve will power most escorts out there quicker than the chassis can handle .. i mean a sub 200bhp engine in what is a 1960's designed car is always going to fun ..

 

Some may say why am i defending the Duratec.. i'm not, i'm just giving unbiased facts .. i dont do engines remember.. just chassis, so i have nothing to gain here.

 

Lets just look at a Pinto type engine ,.... the Warrior .. the head alone is 6k .. just the head, no manifolds, no carbs/tbs .. just the head, to make somewhere near 300 from those you need steel rods and crank, and a pro build. you would be a fool to run a wet sump on it. The extras cost !!

 

 

Remember also that Gaz has a race engine .. it did at one time make 260, it now makes respectable power, its close to what Matts old engine made... and we all know Matts car was fast.

So what was the costs of these engines when new?????

 

Matts been close to these Duratecs since Steve started playing with them, and remember Steve built Matts engine, and now Steve says the Duratec is the best engine.. but phone him up for a pinto build, he'll build it, phone him up for an XE and he'll build that .. his hours are charged at the same rate no matter what his working on.. to coin a phrase,

"same shit different toilet"

 

Matts gone Duratec.. he must have had a reason

[Guest MK1gaz]

Matt i've not mentioned your install price ,

 

Well for starters Matts 300bhp duratec engine install would cost twice the price of his old atmo cossie install by the time it's driving

 

 

 

 

I said that a brand new 300bhp duratec install would cost twice as much as a 230ish bhp atmo cossie install , and it will

[Guest MK1gaz]

I've never seen a 300Bhp atmo YB .. of 2000cc, the best i've seen was 287bhp and cost a fortune for the engine alone..

There's a 350+bhp atmo YB engine in a mk2 escort in greece (it's even been in classic ford magazine) . Also rolling roads "peak" bhp runs mean nothing , it's the clock that counts i'm affraid mate . All forms of motorsport use clocks not dynos to settle whos the fastest . So in other words having the latest super dooper whizz bang screamer of an engine is all well and good but if it can't beat an old fashioned one in a race then what's the point !!!!!!!!!

[Guest MK1gaz]

Remember also that Gaz has a race engine .. it did at one time make 260, it now makes respectable power, its close to what Matts old engine made... and we all know Matts car was fast.

So what was the costs of these engines when new?????

Don't forget that mines a comfy street car NOT a race car . So mines running on 100% pump fuel and with a sensible twin box exhaust system to stop it frightening old ladies as i drive to the shops . Also the pinto based 16 valvers will ALWAYS be cheaper than duratecs cos they fit into an escort and they already have a steel crank and rods as standard . That's £2000+ saved already !!!!!!!!

[mitomad]

I've never seen a 300Bhp atmo YB .. of 2000cc, the best i've seen was 287bhp and cost a fortune for the engine alone..

There's a 350+bhp atmo YB engine in a mk2 escort in greece (it's even been in classic ford magazine)

Yes but didnt he spend 40k building the engine lol

[Guest MK1gaz]

lol , he spent £40,000 on a few engines before he got to the 350+bhp one . Do you honestly think a 2 litre duratec can make 150bhp a litre on a Dyno-dynamics rolling road whilst on pump fuel then cos i don't ?

[mitomad]

lol , he spent £40,000 on a few engines before he got to the 350+bhp one . Do you honestly think a 2 litre duratec can make 150bhp a litre on pump fuel then cos i don't ?

rite found the mag ,the engine bill is close to being 30k and is running 122 octane fuel cheating? well no according to you as its a atmo cossie lol

[Guest MK1gaz]

Yes cheating allright but retromotorsport hadn't seen a 300bhp atmo cossie and know he has !!!!!!!!

[mk1super]

I'll be back when it hits page 50

[Guest MK1gaz]

I'll be back when it hits page 50

I don't need that long to shoot a few holes in the duratec hype . In fact i might even get one for my mk1 Cortina as they're now soooooooo cheap !!!!!!!!! . I'll make some calls tomorrow and post up the prices then

[Toby]

Hands up everyone who believes the Greek 412hp YB.

[Vista]

Hands up everyone who believes the Greek 412hp YB.

 

Not putting my hand up but then I don't believe Gaz either

[sambo]

Bloody hell guys. Great arguements etc but Really all i needed ws for advice as to costs of a decent 240 ish horeses engine! Full install really and everything thats needed. I dont think the info is that readilly available hence my confusion.

Ah well, its fun to read Gaz slate everything!

[4parajon]

Sambo - I'm sure Ive just read the feature in last months CF mag about there 250bhp "straight from the box" duratec cost £4.5k, think they got it straight from cosworth.

That does'nt seem an un-reasonable amount when you compare what a YB or even an 8 valve pinto would cost for a similar expected output.

Grace Engines who built my YB Turbo do a lot of 8v pinto's for the hot rod lads and I know he's got a 200+ dry sumped 8v pinto ready to run for about the same sort of money as the duratec.

 

At the end of the day we are all different individuals. From what Ive seen about engines and install costs there does'nt seem to be much in it for whatever you choose........that said I would still go for YB T

[Retromotorsport]

Sambo.. dont get second hand info .. just Phone Steve at SBD and ask him how much ..

Get the complete kit price from him,,, then figure out what you need to fit it and factor in those costs .. ie engine mounts £ 50 kit and £125 fitting.. oh you'll have to price up a cable clip. grommets etc as well, as all new engines need these.

 

Engine instals

 

you need mounts (steve maybe doing these complete )

exhaust system (steve does a manifiold )

rubber hoses to rad.

Dry sump plumbing and bits and bobs (check with steve)

ermm

ermm

 

Help, i cant think of anything else to make up the thousands that it will cost

 

Now for a cossie ..

 

exhaust.. yep you'll need one aswell

hose, probably as the rad may be changed

dry sump plumbing ..if the cars got grip you will want a dry sump

ahhh so that a few quid off because it mounts to teh x-member.. (allthough most want chassis mounts now anyway)

 

 

And Gaz.. the Duratec isnt crap... show me a 2000cc 300 bhp YB for less than 12k (complete engine.. fueling, manifolds, complete from the front pully to the clutch, from the filters to the exhaust collector ) ..... be a bonus if it weighed less than 100kg too

 

As for the greek engine.. i havnt seen it .. seen it written down, but i havnt seen it on any rollers or dyno ..

 

You have mentioned some big names in the BD /YB game ...

 

A quote from one of their customers ...

 

Customer ..." hiya mate , the engine was delivered today ..looks lovely, shame to put it in my car really, should go on display "

 

Builder... " Glad it got there ok, when will you have it in "

 

Customer ... " Oh we allready have it in .. started up and sounds lovely "

 

Builder... " ohh ok, bring it back for its rebuild then "

 

Customer ... " huh !!!!"

 

Some of the top line rally teams using big name engine tuners are apparently sending their engines back for a rebuild after every event .. 100 miles and a rebuild !!! thats what happens when engines get stressed to get the last lot out of them ..

 

Oh and you mentioned steel cranks ... you said you can save £2000 as the 16v YB atmo engine has a steel crank .. but to get close to 300bhp i belive you need to rev past that cranks safe limit, so thats a trip to farndon for rods and crank .. best you add that 2k back in ..

[sambo]

Cheers retro.

 

it seems that all thing duratec are obviously in thier infancy with regards to OSF application though. therefore people are unsure as to the costs and benefits?

 

personally, 300bhp is the magic number and all said and done, YB turbo is the only cost effective way.

 

god damn, i'll miss that bark of the carbs!! ........

cant wait to see some more duratec engined cars out there proving thier worth!

Shame its such a crap looking lump!

[Guest MK1gaz]

cant wait to see some more duratec engined cars out there proving thier worth!

Shame its such a crap looking lump!

Ain't that the truth !!!!!!!!

[Guest MK1gaz]

i'd like to know where all these 300bhp duratecs are hiding then Mr retromotorsport . So far there's only 1 and that's only been in a mega-lightweight catherham thing where it recorded a 1/4mile about the same as a certain mk1 escort with a pinto in it !!!!!!!!!!!

[pauln]

Hands up everyone who believes the Greek 412hp YB.

 

I'd believe any power figure up to 600bhp.......... but only if that YB had a turbo bolted to it.

[Guest MK1gaz]

Sambo - I'm sure Ive just read the feature in last months CF mag about there 250bhp "straight from the box" duratec cost £4.5k, think they got it straight from cosworth.

All these £4500 + VAT duratec kits come with half the bits missing !!!!!!!!! They bolt on a dry sump pan and some throttle bodies and then leave all the expensive bits that make it work under the counter !!!!!!!!! Most of the cheaper kits have standardish engines so all they're really doing is flogging you some expensive aftermarket performance parts

[Guest MK1gaz]

Oh and you mentioned steel cranks ... you said you can save £2000 as the 16v YB atmo engine has a steel crank .. but to get close to 300bhp i belive you need to rev past that cranks safe limit, so thats a trip to farndon for rods and crank .. best you add that 2k back in ..

Well if your building a 300bhp N.A. 4 cylinder engine then they will all cost the same in parts . The only price difference is fitting it , this is where a 16v pinto type engine will save you a fare few bob . Also when will you understand that a "genuine" 300bhp 2 litre N.A. engine will need exotic fuel , huge compression and more revs than the church of England !!!!!!!! Anything turning at 10,500+ rpm with high compression + exotic fuel will make the big "peak" numbers on a rolling road . Even 1300cc bike engines make 200+ bhp at mega revs . The problem is if you have a street car how the foooooook can you drive one anywhere then ? Do you carry cans of "witches brew petrol" in jerry cans everytime you go out for a drive ? Do you let the traffic pull away for 10 secs before you dial up 5000 revs in order to pull away from a red light ? Do you turn off the engine , get out of the car and push the car forwards in slow moving traffic jams ? Or do you drag it around on a trailer behind a diesil and only drive it flat out around a track 3 times a year and then rebuild it ? Answers on a postcard please !!!!!!!