LSDs... whats the Diff?

[angria man]

Apologies if this is a uneccesary new thread... and point me in the right direction if youve all covered this one.

 

Looking to fit an LSD to the English axled Anglia 105e.

Currently got a 4:1 out of a wrecked Mk2 in the back which is all fine... but want to feel more planted on the track.

 

Any guiding experiences with Quaife ATB’s or Tran-X (or other) plate type diffs?...

I tour, track day and do the shows so Im not after anything with too hardcore!... just looking for better drivability, launches, cornering etc.

 

Thanks.

[mk2 mike]

I've just got a 3J plate diff. Not driven the car yet so can't give an opinion yet but 3J are fast moving up the list as the diff to have. Lots of peeps are getting them.

[Andrade]

I have a 4:1 diff with quaife ATB fitted in my anglia estate. It is definitely some of the best money I spent on the car. Cornering on power and the car stays stable. Some tyrespin through 1st, 2nd and a bit of 3rd and the car stays straight. 

 

And that's just from some lively road driving on clear sunday mornings. I would assume it would be even more noticeable on track days!

 

[BigBubba]

Plated diffs like tran x or 3j are awesome for the track or competition and the grip is unbelievable, but can be annoying for road use, they tend to clunk and bang a lot when doing slow speed manoeuvres, they need set up correctly, and the clutch plates do wear out over time requiring a rebuild.

 

Quaife atb is a great all rounder if track use is only occasional and it's mostly used on the road, it's quiet, it doesn't require setting up, and will never wear out so no costly rebuilds.

 

Plated diffs give more grip on loose surfaces and snow/ice, and if you break a half shaft it'll get you home

ATB diffs never lock, so on the loose stuff they act more like a standard open diff, and if you break a shaft you'll be phoning the AA for a lift home.

 

Had a Quaife fitted to my old RS and found it to be excellent...... and lets face it, how often are you gonna drive on a gravel stage, or in 6" of snow?

[JP.]

Have them both. Quaife ATB and an genuine ZF 70% lsd ( properly setup for tarmac use ) in two of our Capri's
Quaife ATB is absolute drop and forget. You wont notice its there unless you start to drift then you know you have lsd.

The ZF plate LSD ( like the others like tran X etc ) come in several settings from 40 to about 70%. Its clunky, its noisy and lifting the throttle on a very wet day could give the experience like pulling the handbrake.... it just locks the rear wheels as it sees slip by the wet tarmac. 

Parking the car in a tight parking spot on a hot days will turn peoples heads by the clunking noises and the more throttle I have to give to overcome the lock of the diff

 

They both have their charms but if you just want to enjoy your car and have fun with it like an ordinary car just put the Quaife in.

[aardvark101]

QUAIFE..job done.

[theloudboy]

I got a plate diff in mine and I had heard all about the banging and knocking and mine does not make a noise even pushing the car when its on full lock it gets hard to push but does not make a noise when they are set up for road use they don't when setting them up for motorsport you will hear it then,

[BigBubba]

Totally agree with JP, the plate diffs are great for competition, but setting ramp angles and preload is a total minefield, and can cause all sorts of issues on the road, as he said, locking the back end or pushing the car into understeer.

 

Loads of people online hate the quaife atb with a passion 'cause they find it hard to drift with, but drifting doesn't make a car quick, grip does, and the quaife does that beautifully, without drama or smoking tyres.

[irishtorag]

So just curious

If I fit an atb diff it wont be much different than standard diff on road which is what I normally do as in club runs?

I thinking of a diff but would like a bitta fun now and then although she is only a 1600 xflow still be nice to feel tail out once in while.

Wats recommended ?

Yes I know shouldn't be fecking about on roads but makes you feel young and foolish every now and then

Kenny

[Andrade]

So just curious

If I fit an atb diff it wont be much different than standard diff on road which is what I normally do as in club runs?

I thinking of a diff but would like a bitta fun now and then although she is only a 1600 xflow still be nice to feel tail out once in while.

Wats recommended ?

Yes I know shouldn't be fecking about on roads but makes you feel young and foolish every now and then

Kenny

 

 

this pretty much covers it

 

[Herr Doktor]

What a tremendous video

[Stiggy]

ATB is not an LSD.

 

If you have a wheel in the air it acts as a open diff.

[mk2 mike]

Haven't really tested mine yet only driven it very slowly into the garage but it was on full lock and as loud boy says there wasn't a peep from it. Just needs to be set up by someone who knows what they're doing.

[irishtorag]

so if quaife atb is not an lsd why promote as such and what is it?

[Stiggy]

An automatic torque biasing differential. The term Limited Slip Differential means just that it allows limited slip of one of the wheels. A true LSD never allows a wheel to spin off all the available drive. The Icelanders use the apply the brake trick to send the ppwer were it is needed. I post a vid later to explain.

I suppose they use it as a generic term.

[Stiggy]

Have a look at this page.

 

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/differential6.htm Specifically the torsen diff (same as quaife) one wheel in the air equals no drive as it is a percentage sent to wheel with most grip. 50% of zero is zero.

[irishtorag]

So Stiggy for normal road use with a little bit of fun once in a while

slippy tar kinda fun what diff do you recommend

engine is a 1600 xflow with 13gt head its getting fast road cam and bike carbs with maybe 1300 pistons

box and rear axle are the standard 1300gl with tramp bars

its nothing special just a normal road car

[BigBubba]

I hear this argument all the time, about lifting a wheel, and its very relevant if the car is used on stage or circuit, but how often have you lifted a rear wheel on the road? It only happens if you're banging over kerbs on track, a la BTCC. More often than not, a well set up tarmac car will cock a front wheel due to roll centre changes.

 

I still say ATB for the road, plate for competition and 200+hp. There's no doubt that a well set up plate lsd is the ultimate set up, but for fit and forget, trouble free motoring, the Quaife has it beaten hands down imo.

[Rally Pack 2000]

I hear this argument all the time, about lifting a wheel, and its very relevant if the car is used on stage or circuit, but how often have you lifted a rear wheel on the road? It only happens if you're banging over kerbs on track, a la BTCC. More often than not, a well set up tarmac car will cock a front wheel due to roll centre changes.

 

I still say ATB for the road, plate for competition and 200+hp. There's no doubt that a well set up plate lsd is the ultimate set up, but for fit and forget, trouble free motoring, the Quaife has it beaten hands down imo.

 

I must agree, it does seem every time this question is asked the same misleading facts arise. I was one of the first adopters of the Quaife type LSD over 25 years ago and its still in there and I have never done a single thing to it! (I feel guilty when i cant service something) I disagree with Stiggy that its not a considered an LSD as by nature it does limit slip. Nowhere in the initials LSD is there a letter for full lock or not referenced within. When I got one it was marketed as Torsen Gleeson Type Limited Slip Differential. Its Torque biasing characteristics were noted in its specs but it was only coined much later as ATB in its actual title when confusion arouse between it and the plate type. Then it was ATB LSD now its not even that, just ATB LOL! Then the Chinese whispers started to spread mainly by the plate brigade that somehow a non plate LSD impacts on the owners masculinity or driving skills! LOL I have even heard that said on forums that real men use the clutch type. I have also heard these are meant for Front Wheel Drive cars when its design pre-dates the mass FWD tangent the motor industry took with small cars and RWD Escorts were one of the first cars Quaife made them for. This notion and that it is no longer a real LSD is just further attempt to denigrate and for the life of me I cannot understand why its like differential racism!

 

The idea that the clutch type will be totally silent if set up correctly is all well and good but thats a big IF. People in the UK are lucky that most of the Escort axle industry is located there but try getting things done competently elsewhere and it will bring tears to your eyes. Fit and forget can be a blessing. 25 to 30 years I have had of trouble and maintenance free service for something on an Mk1/2 Escort, thats unheard of! I remember when as a group of young guys all owning Escorts and experimenting with all sorts of ratios and diffs. (Now you would end up on YouTube and labeled a danger to society by current affairs programs, politicians and police but back then people just smiled as it was just young guys with a hobby) I got a Quaife, which I had never even heard of the brand and ordered it from the UK through a magazine no internet then, for my Standard 2.0lt and another friend ordered an Atlas and bought a capri diff. Every time he parked or turned tightly it would clunk. No specialist could set it up right for him as here in Australia if it wasnt a Ford 9in diff they had no expertise. So he just grew to tolerate the clunking although we mocked him constantly as you do. My Quaife was always silent. Around the same time local governments went roundabout crazy all of a sudden as they were cheaper than putting in lights and my standard 2.0lt would power through them much quicker than his modified car wasting time drifting through the roundabouts. The Quaife just had a knack to perfectly balance the right amount of power to each wheel to give the fastest line without excessive oversteer.

 

Ive driven this car over the worst roads many gravel ones for university field trips and camping trips and never once did I loose drive through one rear wheel off the ground. What most dont seem to consider is that as one wheel begins lifting but still in contact with the road surface is that the diff is biasing drive away from that wheel as it begins to loose traction and aids you to control the car to achieve both wheels back in equal contact with the road ASAP before you find yourself in an out of control situation with the wheel full off the ground. I didnt even realise there was a wheel off the ground problem with these differentials till twenty years later and the advent of internet forums like this one where I suddenly read my system is no longer an LSD and I have loss of drive because im lifting one rear wheel all the time. Lucky I found out, now when im driving on extreme surfaces im totally paranoid giving myself a hernia but still havent encountered the phenomenon, thanks for that internet, ignorance is bliss. If I believe everything I have read online all those 11's I left at the lights were my imagination too and that driving with a Quaife feels just like a standard diff and you cant even drift when provoked to have a bit of fun. I can assure you that the Quaife is a fun and highly reliable road LSD. It may not limit slip as much as a locking type but the silence and reliability is the trade off you pay for that. No doubt if track days were your main focus then its the plate type all the way. Like everything its horses for courses but the notion that the Quaife is just an open diff center you cant blow as easily is simply not true.  Roundabouts are great. Its heaps of fun.

[Stiggy]

The OP asked what was the difference and arguments.

 

Just trying to show what's what, ATB is great in a FWD less torque steer.

 

Ever tried driving a powerful FWD with a Plate Type LSD ?? Gripper for example you need to be Popeye.

 

But I am only giving examples so folks can make an informed decision.

[BigBubba]

Don't get me wrong Stiggy, you're totally right that if a wheel was to become airbourne then the torque biasing becomes an issue, hence why most, if not all rally prepped cars have plate diffs, because they spend a lot of time in the air and on loose surfaces. But there's far too many folk reading misleading posts online, basically trashing the Quaife ATB, saying it's effectively useless in RWD applications when they've never experienced the diff first hand. It's simply not true. I've used both, and found the ATB to be a fantastic product, very progressive, even with a 190hp Pinto. I've never had problems keeping both rear wheels on the road, and found it easy enough to slide about when provoked.

[Stiggy]

Again I also have had both. If you want to sit and do donuts all day an ATB is not what you want. But as I already stated only trying to give an informed opinion. They both have good and bad points.

[Col-ashtonmobile]

its finding someone though

[irishtorag]

well as I said before im too old for donuts all day  " id prefer digestives"  but I do like the odd bit of slippy diesel tar now and then

so would atb  be good nuff for a wee 1600 xflow to have small bitta fun in ?

[Stiggy]

ATB is perfect for a road car, it's basically fit and forget.

 

Clutch type does need some maintenance, and needs initial set up as mostly they are set way too tight and moan and groan like a bitch.

 

WPE can set up clutch type LSD's at a very reasonable price.

 

Personally it would have to be a Clutch Type LSD, mainly for the fun aspect.