4 door escort prices?????

[Rally Pack 2000]

Warning Long Post

 

Maybe in Australia but it'll never happen here. 4 doors have been and still will be the cheaper alternative (though not cheap in the grand scale of things). And you've just contradicted yourself by saying 2 doors will command a 20% premium over 4 doors so how can they catch up? For the past 4,5,6 years 4 doors were the cheaper way into escort ownership but prices have risen, granted, but not to 2 door levels. Plus we never had a 4 door RS over here so thats maybe the only exception as its an oddball, but still wont command the same price as its 2 door partner.

 

LOL I knew someone would mention that. Its not a contradiction as you have misunderstood the difference between a slight price percentage premium for perceived better looks compared to the huge disparity in value because one has extra doors, which is really at the heart of this discussion. A 4 door within 20% of the price of a 2 door would be considered at an equivalent price level as that 20% could also be applied to overall condition or mods and add on equipment. We are talking about the outrageous two to three times difference in prices that exist between the same model. Huge Value disparity for what at the crux of it is the same car and a small premium for an option you prefer is something quite different. (Just side note out of curiosity, we didnt get 2 door Ghias here, whats the price differential between a 2 door Ghia and a 4 door version over there? I have always wondered)

 

 

2 door escorts are the market leader, more desirable by many thus prices are increasing, which by default means all other models be it 4 doors, capris, anglias etc. are the second choice but these too are now rising due to people wanting to get into the ford scene but being priced out due to escort prices. Everything ford related is going up and 2 doors, be it lowly L models or RS' are top of the list barring exotic cortinas and capris etc.

By the way I have nothing against 4 doors just saying I dont think they'll ever match the 2 door prices.

 

Yes they are the market leader but when something becomes so expensive that people start to invest in less expensive alternatives thus then increasing their value more. The suggestion is that while two door values are going up (as is the broader classic car market) that as people turn to 4 doors more, their value will rise as a greater percentage closing the gap between the two. Its just a bit of a market catch up as 4 doors had flat-lined for some time. The time frame will be quiet large however as  I think as said before my guess will be about ten years.

 

Cant see how 4 doors are stronger if so why didnt Ford ever rally them. Crash test anyone lol?

 

Ford of Germany actually published the original torsional rigidity figures for both back in 70s. The 4 door was stronger as the car was originally designed as a 4 door and later made into a 2 door. (With the Mk1 I believe it was the other way around)

 

So if 4 doors were stronger why didnt Ford Rally them? Well, there is this funny tubular equivalency factor called a "roll cage" LOL the fact that Escort dashes are flush with the door opening means that cage fitting along the A pillar will significantly cut into the door opening space. Ever tried to get in a 4 door with a cage? Oh man the only comparison I can give is me being 6ft tall trying to get into an MG Midget! Not good for getting out either after a crash. So given the cage makes it just as strong regardless it make sense to use the version with the widest door opening and your only ever going to have one passenger. That said remember that Homologation rules pretty much determined how many doors you could have. RS1600/1800s were only ever made as two doors. You do however see that odd Rallying 4 door flat fronted RS2000s around from time to time. Homologation thanks too 4 Door Australian 2lt Rally Packs YAY!

 

Once I read these figures out to an engineering friend he set out to determine on standard road cars, which points were of weakness on the two doors. Using new fangled laser measuring devices at the time (and my 4 door used as the experiment car compared to his. I remember being told not asked but oh well.) The results were quite interesting. A two door has a thinner B pillar. It also further back creating a much larger front door gap and was notably weaker under load at the top of the B pillar with large door opening on one side and the window opening on the other. Combined then with a much thinner C pillar afforded it with more detectable flex. On a four floor it has a much thicker B pillar and a smaller front door opening but its rear of the car where the 4 door really shines. The back wheel arch part that bulges into the rear door opening is an absolute beast. Its a combination of its shape and metal thickness and the thicker C pillar. Its over engineered and the place to be in side impacts is the rear seats. When converting the Mk2 to a 2 door this structure was virtually illuminated with a very long and more flexible outer skin. With age in an unmodified car you could readily tell the difference when you drove them.

 

(Funny side story) My friends went up to Queensland for a beach holiday but I couldnt go because I had to work and while up there they found a 2 door for sale in a dealer and my friend Charlie decided to buy it. He had gotten his licence on an Auto so it was 1000kms of bunny hops and whiplash the postcards said. But the car had been a country one and a larger portion of its life on dirt and gravel and the thing just sagged. You could see it in the way the doors fitted in the gap. It was a marshmallow compared to any of the others that we had owned even compared to other 2 doors. It became a catch phrase for other cars we would get to drive. When someone went to test out an Escort to buy but left it, you would asked did you get that car?, and they would say "nah it was a Charliemobile". Even after twenty years I heard a mate say that term when he drove one at a show the month before.  It still makes me laugh! Bit I digress in nostalgia soz

 

One thing also should be noted that people in the UK havent noticed the handling disparity is because that only your 2 door shells ever got the strengthening treatment! I think there is very good reason for that especially when powering up in the Sports models. Here in Australia all shells are beefed up so a comparison was more evident. Keeping in mind we are just talking standard cars here.

 

yes lads a 4 door is stronger

flexs less and is proven.

Ford rallied two doors but a lot of other manufacturers rallied

4doors.

As to the other question regarding how much my car stands

yes 3000k euro in total POINT its a cheap escort !

I dont charge myself for my labour or i would not be into classics.

I do all my own work ,im a car restorer and a panel beater by trade.

Maybe you need to look outside of the blue oval to see as said in this thread

and ones before, 4doors are under priced in ford circles because of 2door and RS snobbery,

Infact i can safely say ive read on osf of snobbery towards other models of the blue oval than a 2door escort !

If your a FORD man or doris all models count not just 2door escorts.

 

Seriously Iristorag has really hit the nail here. It absolutely is RS snobbery at play here even if its not an RS! People in the UK cant seem to get their heads around a sporting 4 door model. I think the Sapphire was a huge leap (but not all the way) and its really only recently we have started to see 4 door M models from BMW. Our RS snobs had to get their heads around the 4 door concept and I think that has helped the disparity from here to the UK. But as mention a few times our Mexico equivalents werent accepted by the RS snobs because it didnt have an RS tag even though they were the same car with a flat front. Literally no mechanical difference! Those fanboys can find something to spoil anything including the new Star Wars Movie. The good thing about Oldskoolford is that a pristine factory 1300L will be a crowd pleaser over a tatty RS2000. I like that.

[khanlad]

Wow! Now you know, people in white coats with letters after their names have had their thingy bobs out and proven it! Hehe

[colr6]

Smashing! A very well constructed post as always a pleasure to read

[khanlad]

I could write something that long and fully of interesting facts col, but with my key board skills the post would be days old and no one would care by the time I'd finished.

[khanlad]

Plus I'd have to research my interesting facts first which would slow the whole process even further!

[meXEco]

I think a lot of it comes down to the fact we never had a 4 door rs model over here, so all 2 doors were/are more favourable as it was easier to make a 2 door look like a sporting model just by adding a set of stripes etc. Not a lot of people know that a 4 door rs variant was ever made, and when they started getting imported over here they were looked at as a 4 door with a nosecone added and not a 'real' rs, "oooh look he's added a nosecone to make it look like a proper rs" lol, thats snobbery, and I quite like them actually. I think there were a few 2 door ghias made over here but they are quite rare I believe? And lets not forget ford also made a handful of Mexico estates-now theres a rare oddball!

 

Anyway very interesting read and I doff my cap to your knowledge, but I still think 2 doors will always be worth more. for a like for like model.

[Vista]

 

Seriously Iristorag has really hit the nail here. It absolutely is RS snobbery at play here even if its not an RS! People in the UK cant seem to get their heads around a sporting 4 door model. I think the Sapphire was a huge leap (but not all the way) and its really only recently we have started to see 4 door M models from BMW. Our RS snobs had to get their heads around the 4 door concept and I think that has helped the disparity from here to the UK. But as mention a few times our Mexico equivalents werent accepted by the RS snobs because it didnt have an RS tag even though they were the same car with a flat front. Literally no mechanical difference! Those fanboys can find something to spoil anything including the new Star Wars Movie. The good thing about Oldskoolford is that a pristine factory 1300L will be a crowd pleaser over a tatty RS2000. I like that.

 

Still going on, there's a lot of moaning in RS circles over here about the fact that there's no 3 door option on the new RS Focus.  This despite all accounts of it being a superb car. I actually quite like the fact that the looks have been toned down a little from the mk2 RS Focus but whilst it doesn't put me off, I too can't get over the idea that 2 doors (or 3 doors in the case of the Focus) = more sporty looking. I think it's bred into us over here.

[khanlad]

You have to look pretty hard at them to notice the back doors, new civic, clio, a few of the alfas, leon

[Vista]

Even the Telegraph is jumping on the 4 door bandwagon 

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/classic/timewarp-1979-ford-escort-for-sale

[2512pf]

I think that car will sell for more than the estimated value given

[bigbadsquare]

I think that car will sell for more than the estimated value given

I think a collecter will pay more too.

[2512pf]

I think a collecter will pay more too.

i think your right paul i think it could fetch near 20k imo

[2512pf]

Here's one eBay item 272250856201. Seems like a bargain

[Vista]

Tidy looking white Mk2 1600 Ghia for sale at the Duchy Show today

 

 

[2512pf]

Tidy looking white Mk2 1600 Ghia for sale at the Duchy Show today

 

IMG_20160522_125941.jpg

 

IMG_20160522_125916.jpg

Looks like a nice motor at a sensible price

[bigbadsquare]

Looks like a nice motor at a sensible price

Guy has sent me a load of pics . Unfortunately he's in Newquay so not easy to go and look. Solid enough from pics.

[Vista]

it isn't the end of the world Newquay. You could be there from Dudley in 4 1/2 to 5 hours in the car. 2 hours or less if you fly (direct Flybe flights are available from Newquay to Birmingham).

[2512pf]

it isn't the end of the world Newquay. You could be there from Dudley in 4 1/2 to 5 hours in the car. 2 hours or less if you fly (direct Flybe flights are available from Newquay to Birmingham).

could make a weekend of it ,esp as bank hol next weekend

[bigbadsquare]

Well wife stops play. I'm not allowed any cars until after we move (2 weeks) and everything is sorted (God knows how long).

[khanlad]

Why do we put up with our women? They can be so unreasonable! Perhaps take it to acas? Or perhaps form an independent panel of people ( from here ) both state your arguments and we can decide?

[Savvi]

Colin that's what I'm trying to find out. To get a good 4 door what do I need to pay? Obviously less than a two door lol. The really nice one on the bay is still for sale at £9500. Is that expensive or on the money. That's the question I wanted answered when I started the link. What do you consider yours is worth as it's a minter I believe?????

 

As always its worth what someone will pay, mine is agreed value at £10K ........ Whether its worth that or someone would pay it is another thing altogether.

 

I see it more as a rare car as mine is original, never restored painted or welded anywhere, its not mint as it has some marks, I have all owners handbooks and purchased from a local family who acquired it from their Uncle & Aunt. It still has only covered 54,000 miles, I would like to get as close to the agreed value as I can, ive not used it for ages but my brother has been taking it to a few shows in the last year, he has it booked in for classic ford, if anyone wants to have a look around it.

[2512pf]

I offered you 7k for it last year

You said you would never sell it

It aint smoke em new motor is it lol

[Savvi]

I offered you 7k for it last year

You said you would never sell it

It aint smoke em new motor is it lol

Last year I wouldn't have, sadly things change, work has changed a lot, ive also lost the love of the old ford scene and now doing a lot of Vw shows, storage may be a issue in the coming years as I also have other classics and just bought a Mini for my Son.

 

I'm not in a major rush and not advertised it yet but I have decided if the right offer comes in then it will go.

 

I still have the Mk1 Nimbus and would use some of the cash to make that how I want it, being a single Dad for 1/2 the week has taken its toll and ive not touched it for 2 years, mk1's have always been my favorite and the ids loved being out in "Vera" where as they are not bothered about the Mk2. Hard choice but it has to be made.

 

You will need to up last years offer a little tho.

[2512pf]

Last year I wouldn't have, sadly things change, work has changed a lot, ive also lost the love of the old ford scene and now doing a lot of Vw shows, storage may be a issue in the coming years as I also have other classics and just bought a Mini for my Son.

 

I'm not in a major rush and not advertised it yet but I have decided if the right offer comes in then it will go.

 

I still have the Mk1 Nimbus and would use some of the cash to make that how I want it, being a single Dad for 1/2 the week has taken its toll and ive not touched it for 2 years, mk1's have always been my favorite and the ids loved being out in "Vera" where as they are not bothered about the Mk2. Hard choice but it has to be made.

 

You will need to up last years offer a little tho.

.

 

Hi I've purchased a 1600 sport since I last spoke to you m8

If I was after a 1600ghia 4 dr again I would be more than interested in yours

But as far as price goes I think the 7k I offered you is a fair price in the current market

All the best

[Savvi]

.

 

Hi I've purchased a 1600 sport since I last spoke to you m8

If I was after a 1600ghia 4 dr again I would be more than interested in yours

But as far as price goes I think the 7k I offered you is a fair price in the current market

All the best

 

 

Thanks, I wouldn't let it go for £7k maybe market value who knows, but its worth more then that to me.