Originality - Where do you draw the line?

[Rally Pack 2000]

When doing up both my cars I constantly have this nagging feeling never to stray too far from the cars originality with a certain level of alteration or upgrade acceptable if it is subtle and of great benefit. I deliberately try to avoid turning my Escorts into group 4 rose joined monsters which  seems to be a popular route with the cars, which,  apart from the shell, bare little resemblance to the car it once was.

 

I find those modifications that are virtually invisible to be easy.  A raised first gear in my Type E box but it still has the original box. Australian 2lft cars had a iron bell housing like Cortinas so one of the alloy ones that Burtons has was easy to fit, no one can tell the difference and you get the benefits of lighter weight and vibration and sound insulation that the alloy one provides. LSDs easy, Those sorts of modifications dont trouble me.

 

Then you start the noticeable ones. I personally hate the plastic Australian mirrors that look really cheap so I fitted Euro ones but any Escort owner is always quick to point out that they arent the original ones ad nauseam. I went with a bolt on double width kit so as not to alter the caster like a anti dive kit but its reversible and hardly looks much different at a glance. (Not sure if I have achieved any benefit however, the jury is still out on that one)

 

With respect to the engine I have tried to keep it looking pretty standard keeping original carburettor setups but with the original exhaust manifolds being so incredibly bad I have changed which most people seem too.  Having seen the "For the Love of Cars" documentary there was something said on that show that sparked me to start this thread, it was said on the show that a purist could go over that car from top to bottom and give it the thumbs up? We never had Mexicos here but even I could see that under that bonnet was no where near original. I thought the purists were rather anal about these things down to the last engine sticker? Even the Wilwood brakes stood out. As good as the old Iron types 16s were in their day when it comes time to replace them do you resist the temptation of the array of decent calipers out there? For me that the first thing I look at to see if a car has been modified or not. Do you get away with vented disks at a concourse when originally you could buy them from Ford as an upgrade. (The first ones I tried were original Ford ones) but the car didnt come out of the factory with them, so do you or dont you?

 

Then there is the forced upgrades that you cant obtain an original replacement or the part was so poorly designed in the first place you simply refuse to fit the silly Ford version. I recently was forced to fit a new rose jointed gear stick as the plastic threads on the original just turned to powder and similar second hand replacements were of the verge of the same. Its fairly invisible though which makes it acceptable but its positioning and shift quality isnt perfect. But there are things I find once you do change a part it starts a domino effect and gets totally out of control. With my Mk2 it has the smaller strut top holes which you cant get new rubber replacement top for any more. So begrudgingly I went down the spherical bearing solid alloy ones which were the only ones I could get. With the inserts of the standard struts it meant I had to use a fitting nut adapter set that drew attention to the fact you were using original top and looks strange sticking up weirdly out of them. The solution was to go to Capri Bilstein struts which have a short and thicker insert end and makes every thing look flush again. Of course then you have to change the track rod ends to fit and separate steering arms. With that then came the change in disks an calipers to the bigger Princess stuff while I was going to all that trouble to change the struts ...... and you can see how you start to get out of control and it starts to feel your Oldskool road goer is starting to turn into one of those modified group 4 cars I was trying to avoid in the first place!

 

So I thought I would open the discussion, where do you draw that line? Did you start with a bare shell so you just fitted every up rated part you can get your hands on or have you only changed those things that are really deficient on the car.. I personally am forever tooing and frowing, wasting more money after having second thoughts, I cant seem to get a clear line for myself where to draw in the sand? How do you guys manage it? Or am I just the only nutter that even has this problem?

[Vista]

I draw the line where I want it to be. It's my car, for my benefit and I don't give a toss what others think. That said, mods to my mk1 RS only go as far as bolt on ones. I don't care if they're obvious, just that they're easily reversible.

 

As to the purists issue, all AVO models were available from the factory / dealer with a very wide variety of modifications, including twin carbs, available from new so I doubt there's much under the bonnet that would upset a purist

[Danish]

I would have prefered to draw the line at removable mods. I've not done that in a couple of places - welded-in centre console, rear bulkhead and half-cage. But making these bolt-in wouldn't have been such a good job, or given me the strength in the shell I wanted. It could still be put back to standard with a bit of work but I felt a bit uneasy doing it.

 

With things like the engine I've deliberately stayed with a Pinto as it's reasonably correct for the car's age and I can get enough power out of it for my purposes. 

 

Another dilemma I had was do I keep the original parts to put it back to standard - front and rear seats, steering wheel, wheels - but they take too much space and I'm unlikely to suddenly decide I want a standard car.

[4-Door Pete]

There is the arguement that how original is the car anyway, they can end up like 'Triggers broom' once you've fitted a new engine, panels, and had the interior re-upholstered is it the same car that rolled off Ford's production line. Also, as mentioned some of the parts are impossible to get hold of. And why would'nt you want to uprate the brakes with something modern that works.

 

When restoring my Capri I have used bolt on mods but all these can be reversed and the car looks as Ford intended from the outside. My Cortina was in a pretty sorry state and I wanted to make a trackday car so I have gone with a race theme but it could all be reversed with a bit of angle grinding. However, if one of my cars was a special eg. an RS3100 Capri I would certainly keep it original.

 

I can see both sides to this debate, I think it's your car, your money and it's you that has to live with the car at the end of the day. I'm sure in the height of the 70's custom scene people didn't think twice about cutting up an original car to jack it up, paint it purple and cover the seats in leopard print faux fur.

[nosher 64]

I agree with vista on this.... its my car and can do what I like to it.

I have had people come up to me at shows telling me that I have ruined my car as its a Delux and not a GT !!

9 times out of 10 when asked what car they are displaying they reply "oh no I have a Mondeo in the car park" !

[ZetecVan 2.0]

There is the arguement that how original is the car anyway,

 

If it's an original car I would loath to modify it. I used to own Alan Manns 107E Prefect (reg 33KKR) when it was an unmodified, totally original, never welded, one owner, 42,000 miler car. I personally wouldn't have modified it, but now it is I don't feel any anger or bitterness, because he's done a quality job.

 

Had a conversation with my work colleague this morning about me putting a cage into the Anglia I am restoring. He said 'Won't the purists complain?'. I said 'Yeah probably but I've rescued this car from the scrap yard so I can do what I want with it'.

 

So in a nutshell, if it's mostly original, I would keep it as original as possible. If it was a shell or have done loads of welding to it, modify away!

[quickrack]

I set out to make my car obviously different from any other, while remaining a days work with grinder/welder and some paint to return it to standard.

And as above I despise the mondeo or worse passat driver who criticises.....grrrr!

Its my car. You want it otherwise then hand me a large bag of tenners and away you go.

 

And no Rally Pack you are not the only one who obsesses over parts and then changes them after buying/fitting something only to decide its not for you.

[105Charlie]

My Anglia is completely standard and never restored and drives brilliantly. I planned on modding everything, but I started to struggle to bring myself to mess about with such an original car

 

Then I sent a nice big check to Milton.

 

 

 

 

 

It's my car

[Blimey]

I think most anoraks who insult people with "it's not original" Are probably very boring people .

It is your car do with it ,What you want,If you order a brand new car ,Would you order it with someone elses spec?

Nope ...

[Rally Pack 2000]

I set out to make my car obviously different from any other, while remaining a days work with grinder/welder and some paint to return it to standard.

And as above I despise the mondeo or worse passat driver who criticises.....grrrr!

Its my car. You want it otherwise then hand me a large bag of tenners and away you go.

 

And no Rally Pack you are not the only one who obsesses over parts and then changes them after buying/fitting something only to decide its not for you.

 

Im glad im not the only one thats comforting

 

I think most anoraks who insult people with "it's not original" Are probably very boring people .

It is your car do with it ,What you want,If you order a brand new car ,Would you order it with someone elses spec?

Nope ...

 

Years ago my Twincam had one of its radius arm mounts get rusty and started making a clunking sound so I ground them off and ordered replacements from the UK. Some guy checked the car out and saw the radius arms missing and most assuredly informed me it wasnt an original Twincam even though Australian Twincams have an engine code to show what they are. I had the arms under the front seat but I didnt bother I just took a deep breath and kept my mouth shut.

 

The car in my avatar still has its original 2Lt engine with the engine and chassis number being the same although I dont think the car has any great value in comparison to the Twincam but I like driving it more but I dont want to alter it too much, who knows one day it may be valuable too.

[aardvark101]

I bought my Anglia because i wanted a racy looking hotrod stylee Anglia, its not mega rare and does not command 10s of thousands of £££ to purchase, i alter it so it performs and looks the way i want it to look, and so it can hold its own on the track.

It is  not an investment as such, its just a way of enjoying my money rather than having it sitting in the bank.

If however i had the cash to purchase a Twincam for instance, there is no way im gonna be taking an angle grinder to it, yes i would do the sensible upgrades (brakes,shocks etc) but nothing that would devalue it in any way, cars should not be  put in glass cases they are meant to be driven and enjoyed, but at the end of the day its your cash and its your car so the round ones to what anyone else thinks.

[v8cortina]

The only line I draw is when I run out of money

[PaulMags]

The only line I draw is when I run out of money my cars and I will do what I want to them and don't care what others think. That's what I think anyway. You are only on this planet once so make the most of what YOU want to do

The only line I draw is when I run out of money my cars and I will do what I want to them and don't care what others think. That's what I think anyway. You are only on this planet once so make the most of what YOU want to do

. Good on you boyo.lol

[skeeter]

For me the choice boils down to why you have the car. I think there are probably 4 generic classes of owner;

 

1) The "investor": If you want it as a longer term investment then originality is really important to ultimate value.

 

2) The "factory enthusiast": Keep it as close to original as possible, use refurb parts where possible. In this case "forced" changes are probably ok.

 

3) The "enthusiast": Drive it and  make what ever changes you want to the car to make it work for you, either in terms of comfort or performance

 

4) The "modder": Hang the future value and anything goes

 

 

I think I am somewhere between (2) and (3).

 

S

[Rally Pack 2000]

For me the choice boils down to why you have the car. I think there are probably 4 generic classes of owner;

 

1) The "investor": If you want it as a longer term investment then originality is really important to ultimate value.

 

2) The "factory enthusiast": Keep it as close to original as possible, use refurb parts where possible. In this case "forced" changes are probably ok.

 

3) The "enthusiast": Drive it and  make what ever changes you want to the car to make it work for you, either in terms of comfort or performance

 

4) The "modder": Hang the future value and anything goes

 

 

I think I am somewhere between (2) and (3).

 

S

 

Excellent grading system! I am the same as you somewhere between 2 and 3 although closer to 2 but when I swing over to 3 I feel really guilty what I have spent my money on afterwards! LOL Im not sure why though as my Mk2 will be inherited by someone and never sold so there is no logical reason to stick as close to standard as I do. Although there arent many 2lt 4door Rally Pack Mk2s left (most that survive are 2 door) it doesnt really have much intrinsic or rarity value per say, its more sentimental value having toured the country, my university days, and my foolish teenage years with it and it just reminds me of better times. Strangely though my Twincam, which is probably worth something, I have no emotional attachment too it whatsoever. I get the urge to sell it and get so irritated by the aficionados who come to look at it they I take it off the market only to try again a few years later!

[theloudboy]

Its my car I do what I want with it who cares what others say about what has been done to your car life is too short to worry, I just open up the twin 50s and then I can't hear them anymore lol

[2litreScapri]

It all depends on personal taste, and what you buy (or your intentions to buy). I'm between 2 & 3 as well. I like factory perfect examples, if the car has always been stored & kept bang up to date with maintenance, servicing & cleaning. If you have to build up a car from a bare shell it's a free canvas, do what you want with it. Certain special editions shouldn't really be modded but a few modern tweaks don't go amiss, especially if brakes &suspension are upgraded to cope with modern roads. For me, the South London look is nearly spot on- clean & simple, the right stance & power to boot.

[Benjy✌]

Make the car like the image you have in your head! Whether its nut and bolt original or fully spaced framed track car, do what makes you happy!

[BigBubba]

Ask yourself if you would turn your nose up at a fully grp4 prepped car? They are as far from original as you can get, with a good number of them running vauxhall or honda power. As already mentioned, it's all about personal taste. I have a genuine RS2000, in a relatively rare colour, with factory fitted vinyl roof and many original features, but that didn't stop me stripping it out and cutting the tunnel out! That's what I wanted to do, so I did it. 

I enjoy the challenges that come with modifying, and the car is unique to me. I love it, others will hate it, but to be honest, I couldn't care less! 

You build it, you pay for it, and you enjoy it. The critics can go back to polishing their exhausts and checking the humidity levels in their plastic bubbles!!!!

[deltamal]

My Cortina was a standard Mk3 1300 L when I got it, if I had kept it standard I would have lost interest years ago, sold it and would have probably been banger raced and scrapped by now, I have changed engines, gearboxes and suspension to suit my taste at the time and drag raced it, now a V6 with 5 speed box and 5 link suspension looks standard and gets lots of attention at shows I still have all the bits I took off it so could be put back to original, but not sure why you would! 

[texr2000]

Im at a bit of a dilemma with mine, its going to need a bit of a resto soon as been a good 15 od years and body work is starting to get a few bubbles. originally i was going to weld up all the chrome trim holes, convert to round lights, ditch black boot panel and go for the more clean look or 'south London look'. Then spoke to someone at a show who said they liked the fact it was still a 1300e but just lowered, new wheels, 1/4 bumpers and engine. And when i put the car together 8 years ago i was sort of going for the look of 'passed down dads mint 1300e and boy racing it up a bit' all the bits other than the 1300gt engine and servo in have boxed in the garage.

 

Now im not so sure what style to go for.

 

The same discussion is going on on the Harris Retards Club page, someone has brought what looks like a mint near concourse Green Mk1 RS2000 and thinking of adding a few mods. And i have to say with that car i feel its a shame to do to much to it being one of only a few cars out there like it.

[Kieran]

chop the front end off and stick a vauxhall engine in it.. they love that

[Rally Pack 2000]

Im at a bit of a dilemma with mine, its going to need a bit of a resto soon as been a good 15 od years and body work is starting to get a few bubbles. originally i was going to weld up all the chrome trim holes, convert to round lights, ditch black boot panel and go for the more clean look or 'south London look'. Then spoke to someone at a show who said they liked the fact it was still a 1300e but just lowered, new wheels, 1/4 bumpers and engine. And when i put the car together 8 years ago i was sort of going for the look of 'passed down dads mint 1300e and boy racing it up a bit' all the bits other than the 1300gt engine and servo in have boxed in the garage.

 

Now im not so sure what style to go for.

 

The same discussion is going on on the Harris Retards Club page, someone has brought what looks like a mint near concourse Green Mk1 RS2000 and thinking of adding a few mods. And i have to say with that car i feel its a shame to do to much to it being one of only a few cars out there like it.

 

Thats the thing with the alot of classic cars is that its only the premier sports models, because of their desirability, are the only ones that seem to be saved with any assemblance of originality. The lesser models, especially in the case of old school Fords, are the ones that get turned into the group 4 monsters. As the decades pass its the 1300e types in original condition become rarer than their RS counterparts. If I see a row of nice RS2000s I will stop and look at one or two but it does get a bit samey. Its that lone 1300e at a show that would get my attention. They are beautiful in their own right. A case in point is my Mk2 you see in my avatar. In Australia, with the introduction of the Mk2 there were no RS2000s (apart from 25 sample cars fully imported) Ford made their own premier sports model called the 2lt Rally Pack which is basically a flat nosed RS2000 or Mexico with a 2lt Engine in both 2 and 4 door versions. Ford Australia was heavily invested in the GT title and didnt want to use the term RS as at the time it was the abbreviation for Rat Sh*t which was the Australian vernacular for something broken or crap. Eventually when the RS name had established itself in Europe, in 1979 Ford introduced their own version of the RS2000 which was simply a trimmed up version of the Rally Pack with the droop snoot with the engine, mechanics and the sports suspension being identical. In fact being a lighter car without overhang at the front it can be argued the Rally Pack has a better power to weight and a better front to rear weight bias but that all became irrelevant. Without that RS logo the Rally Packs were just broken up for their spoilers and bumpers and never restored. Only the RS2000s were. The RS owners club wouldnt even recognise the Rally Pack as Australias version of the Mexico even though they had more power than Euro Mexicos from having 2lt engines. Ironically they allow Twincams which are not labelled RS either but they believed that somehow without the RS logo the car wasnt anything special when in fact they had a unique flat nose model in both 2 and 4 door right under their noses! Elitists have a weird insight to things! Both cars were built in similar numbers (2400 RS2000 to 2700 Rally Packs) yet while there are hundreds of RS2000s left today there are only a couple of dozen Rally Packs with almost none of them 4 door cars. All because of that little RS tag that holds less dedication here than it would there as the RS2000 was the only RS model ever sold here before or since, I can only imagine in the UK the view there. From my observation it does seem if its an RS keep it original and if its not its open to be turned to a Rally car! More of the lesser models need to be saved. My point of the thread is not so much about pressure from others, thats just a small factor, its more about the decision within oneself to choose between keeping those less desirable models more original or not. I personally think its wrong to adopt the approach if its a Mexico or RS keep in original and anything else modify the factory sole right out of it. To give a human example if they created a rare drug to keep people alive forever would they only give it to famous film stars and football players while the rest of us common folk were rose jointed and computerised into cyborgs?

 

My aim is - Make subtle and reversible changes, Keep it if it works, Change only what you have too. However Its the conflict of having gone too far with those changes that I find a bit of a grey area and gets me confused and second guessing myself.

 

PS- I think your 1300e is one of the nicest looking Mk1s on these pages. Its better than my Twincam.

[texr2000]

The main Escorts that have value in standard form i believe are 1300Gt's, 1300Sports, Mexico's, Lotus Twin Cams's, RS1600's and RS2000's basically any sporty model. Where as the run of the mill 1100's and 1300xl's etc have little interest to people other than as a shell. Your correct in a few years a factory fresh 1300XL will be very rare to see. And also models like the 1300e will become if they arent already rarer than a Mexico or RS2000, this is helped due to the shear amount of replicas around and that there is a following for the 1300e, (even has its own owners club).

 

But on the other hand the Mexico featured on the TV show For The Love Of Cars is fine example of how it can be done, it had many original features, and from the outside looked not to different from a factory Mexico, but with period modifications like Engine. If I had a proper Mexico thats probably how mine would look other than being a tad lower.

But in regard to your question about originality you could say the Mexico on the show wasn't very original, yeah some of the shell was type 49 and the plates and v5 say mexico. But lots of the metal on that shell is new, and makes it just like just like someone said about Triggers Broom.

 

I have to say typing away i sort of lost the plot to the original question now haha, 

 

Thanks for your comments regarding mine, there more i read and more i plan the mini resto for it, there more my ideas change what i want the outcome to be. im going to have to have a look on here for pics of your Twin cam now to see if i agree with your post haha

[Rally Pack 2000]

The main Escorts that have value in standard form i believe are 1300Gt's, 1300Sports, Mexico's, Lotus Twin Cams's, RS1600's and RS2000's basically any sporty model. Where as the run of the mill 1100's and 1300xl's etc have little interest to people other than as a shell. Your correct in a few years a factory fresh 1300XL will be very rare to see. And also models like the 1300e will become if they arent already rarer than a Mexico or RS2000, this is helped due to the shear amount of replicas around and that there is a following for the 1300e, (even has its own owners club).

 

But on the other hand the Mexico featured on the TV show For The Love Of Cars is fine example of how it can be done, it had many original features, and from the outside looked not to different from a factory Mexico, but with period modifications like Engine.

 

Thanks for your comments regarding mine, there more i read and more i plan the mini resto for it, there more my ideas change what i want the outcome to be. im going to have to have a look on here for pics of your Twin cam now to see if i agree with your post haha

 

I hope you dont change the look too much. You lucky you can put any Kent engine in it an it will looks pretty close to what it was originally but have heaps more power.

 

There are photos of my Twincam somewhere on here when I first joined under the introduction section I think.

 

Edit - It was under readers rides.

 

http://www.oldskoolford.co.uk/ipb/index.php?/topic/74766-my-cars-new-member-fro-australia/?hl=%2Bmember+%2Bfrom+%2Baustralia